doctor who and the companion conundrum

[rivendellrose]

Do you know what makes me exceptionally sad about Doctor Who?

Watching the old-school stuff and realizing that, in subtle ways, it was sometimes less sexist than the stuff we see now.

Hold on, hold on - before I get my fandom-feminist card revoked, I have to clarify - I don't mean that there's no sexism in old!Who. I'm just saying that, when you look at underlying themes of how companions come and go and who they all are... in some ways, I prefer Sarah Jane, Tegan, Romana, and Ace to Rose, Martha, Donna, and Astrid. (Hush - I know Astrid doesn't really count, but it was going to bother me if I didn't list the same number of companions for each section, so there).



Think of the way they leave. Sarah Jane - yeah, sure, she got left behind. Very sad. But in the actual show, what we see as she leaves is her laughing and smiling because the Doctor screwed up the landing point, and she looks pretty darned pleased to run off and do her own thing again. Everything after that, with how he ruined her life and so on, how she was traumatized and lonely, is, as far as I know, RTD's creation. Tegan chooses to leave on her own, because she's tired of all the death and destruction that follows the Doctor around. Romana decides she'd prefer to stay and liberate worlds and have fun on her own in E-Space, rather than allowing the Doctor to send her back home to Gallifrey.

As for Ace, we can't say how she left, since we don't see it, but think about it this way - can you imagine new!Who having a companion like Ace? Totally butch girl, runs around blowing things up, wears a huge jacket that totally hides her figure, prefers a tux to a dress, and somehow ends up picking up more girls in her relatively short run than Jack Harkness picks up dates of either gender?

(It is, of course, possible to argue that Ace is only friends with those girls. Sure. Okay. I'll admit, she never stands under a sign that says "I like girls"... but she does everything but that, and you'll never be able to convince me that they were all platonic.)

Again - I'm not trying to say old!Who was perfect, or that there aren't some pretty serious gender politics issues in those episodes, I'm just... intrigued by the fact that, in some ways, the old stuff does strike me as getting a lot right that the new stuff, IMHO, gets "wrong." I think a lot of the problems with what we see in the new series have to do with the decision to let the Doctor have openly romantic feelings for one companion, and for another (two if you count Astrid, three if you retroactively count Sarah Jane, since that seems to be what Russell was headed toward in "School Reunion") to have openly romantic feelings for him. I think I liked the old days, when you could choose to believe that the Doctor and any given companion were in love, or not, if that was your choice, and canon didn't take a solid position on the matter.

Comments

[zinjadu.livejournal.com]

Even beyond charactarization, I feel like Who uses women as an emotional gut punch. Oh, the woman died, so sad. D: The list of women who are 'friged in the name of the Doctor is a long one, in the new series alone.

Don't know much about the old series, but a comparison would be interesting.

[narsilion.livejournal.com]

I'd love to see some of the episodes with Ace, they sound awesome.
I can't imagine the 9th Dr having a problem with someone like that, but then, maybe I just feel that way because I think he's so wonderful that I turn a blind eye to his faults.
I hope that's not the case.

[vega-ofthe-lyre.livejournal.com]

Yep. A whole lot of word to everything here. I mean, I love NewWho and the companions, don't get me wrong, but RTD is a lazy, lazy writer who used the most obvious, superficial tricks possible to make his point, and while I don't think he means to genuinely offend on all fronts he really sort of succeeds at it, doesn't he? I think the characters have been shoved into these little tiny boxes that are his sort of hazy memory of the show, pigeonholed in ways that the women of OldWho would've laughed at.

If that makes sense.

[paranoidangel]

Very good points. I'm sure that was part of why Donna was so universally loved, that she didn't have any romantic feelings for the Doctor. (plus she was awesome)

Although until I joined fandom it never occurred to me that any of the companions might have had romantic feelings for the Doctor - including Rose. It's annoying that now you can't even argue the Rose thing because it's definitely undeniably in canon. As is Martha and Jack.

It's one thing that I wonder about Steven Moffatt because he's been great at giving us interesting episodes, but there has been some companion-types in love with the Doctor. I know he can write more than just that, I just don't know if he will. (although I love Coupling and Press Gang, so I worshiped at the feet of Steven Moffatt for those before NewWho existed)

[aris-tgd.livejournal.com]

liviapenn was just talking about how annoying she finds the weird New Who fan declaration that "I'm so glad we have these awesome, kickass companions now, not like in the old days when they just got rescued and screamed."

And... yeah, hold on a tick. I could list--yeah, sure, the companions were limited by their era's restraints on women, but more often than not they were actually playing "liberated women" by 60s and 70s ideals, and that gave them far more leeway in ways that we can't admit now.

It's like watching the straight-up sexism in the original The Italian Job versus the weird 90s sexism in the remake. In the original, the women get shoved on a plane because they can't help and they'll be in danger. In the new one, the girl is JUST AS GOOD as the guys, but she still can't DO anything without permission and a man holding her hand.

I guess that's what always taints my "Yeah, Martha and Donna and Rose are awesome" feelings. They're awesome. But they all NEED the Doctor in this way that... grumble. You never got the feeling that Liz was going to wait for the Doctor's PERMISSION, to pick a random example. She stuck around because he asked her to, and when she got bored of listening to him talk about how much smarter he was than her, she left.

(And in the books, apparently, Ace goes off to Time Lord school on Gallifrey. How awesome is THAT?)

So yeah. Word cookies with wordsauce.

[alasandalack.livejournal.com]

yes! (of course, now you make me want to rant endlessly about how the Doctor should not be kissing ANYBODY, EVER...)

[snakewhissperer.livejournal.com]

Ace IS awesome. She is made of win. Well her and the nitro-9

[snakewhissperer.livejournal.com]

actually i couldn't stand her.

But that was because i can't stand catherine tate.

[akashasheiress.livejournal.com]

This topic never quite fails to leave me fuming (srs business, I know). FFS, one of the three very first companions was one of the most awesome, independent-minded women to ever appear on Who. And don't get me started on School Reunion! I claim discontinuation on that one.

[kusanivy.livejournal.com]

Word. I liked it far more when none of the companions were so blatantly in love with the Doctor or vice versa (yes, I totally think Romana II and the Doctor would have been an adorable couple but if you don't see it you can still totally argue against it).

Mind you part of this is me being tired of not just Who-fandom but fandom in general insisting that there must always be a 'ship. That if two characters are really close then they must want in each other's pants - yes, even if they're siblings - because we all know that no other bonds are as strong as sexual ones :P

[icebluenothing.livejournal.com]

The one who *really* upsets me is Martha, who I liked so much in her first few episodes, and then they established that she no longer needs the Doctor to make her life complete -- because she found another man to make her life complete! *facepalm*

Martha clearly had a life, a career, a plan before meeting the Doctor -- would it have been too much to ask for her to simply get over her crush and going back to being the center of her own life?

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

...they established that she no longer needs the Doctor to make her life complete -- because she found another man to make her life complete! *facepalm*

Welcome to the moment that I switched from disliking Russell Davies to downright hating him. If he'd been in the same room as me the moment they revealed Martha's engagement, he would very quickly had a bright red hand-mark across his cheek. :P

I still love Martha, and she's still among my favorite companions... but I pretend that whooooole plotline with Tom never happened. In my world, she's over the Doctor and perfectly happy to have her job, her friends, and her family.

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

Yeah... I couldn't promise, because obviously I haven't seen all of the old stuff (who could?), but from what I've seen I've definitely gotten the impression there's less of women dying for the Doctor. A lot less. Unless I'm just randomly hitting the episodes/companions where that doesn't happen....

We've got to get you onto some old stuff. I think you'd really like some of it. :)

[narsilion.livejournal.com]

nitro-9...I love it!

[snakewhissperer.livejournal.com]

I have to admit...when i need an explosion in a piece of fiction....i have it done by Mcshane explosives...using nitro 9. Am I bad? *Grins*

[narsilion.livejournal.com]

Nope, you're GOOOOOOD!!! ;D

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

Mind you part of this is me being tired of not just Who-fandom but fandom in general insisting that there must always be a 'ship.

I'm totally with you on this, although I will admit that I'm not always exactly fighting against that cause. Every now and then something hits me with a pairing for which my only explanation is "but they have so much chemistry!" And then I feel like a guilty, bad fangirl. ;)

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

More often than not they were actually playing "liberated women" by 60s and 70s ideals, and that gave them far more leeway in ways that we can't admit now.

Exactly the feeling I was trying to get across, yes! It's as though now that we're supposed to be liberated and equal, writers feel free to completely forget that there was ever a problem, and so fall back on doing exactly the same stupid things they would have done before, for no real reason other than laziness and unconscious habit. Hell, I've caught myself doing that, as a writer - it happens. But the point is that professionals ought to be catching themselves on these things.

Liz is the perfect example, yes. And a big yes to Ace at the academy on Gallifrey. I would totally believe it of her. ♥

[kusanivy.livejournal.com]

Oh I'm not insisting that every relationship has to be platonic either - I can be an absolute hopeless romantic too. And I agree sometimes the chemistry is just so good that you want there to be more. And when the chemistry is obvious (again like the Doctor and Romana II ) then it's fine. But sometimes the justification seems to be "well they looked at each other!" or "well they were in the same room together, for two minutes, with no other characters around - it's tru luv!"(and sadly it's not always just the crack!fics that do this)

I think the ones that baffle me the most are the incest pairings really (obviously not something that shows up in Doctor Who a lot). Familial bonds can be just as strong as intimate partnership ones without having to add incest - really.

Sorry - I appear to have gone off on a tangent

[penmage.livejournal.com]

That was why I loved Donna. AFter Rose and Martha (and Astrid) it was SO refreshing to have a companion love the Doctor in a completely platonic way.

As an old Who fan, I have a lot of trouble with the Doctor having romantic feelings for his companion. It just feels utterly, completely wrong to me. I didn't get a romantic vibe from Nine/Rose, but I think the blatently romantic feeling was what made me abhor the entire second season so much. Not only didn't I like Ten, but I also couldn't stand Rose--I needed to go back and rewatch S1 to remember that I had ever loved Rose at all.

I liked Martha, but I didn't like Martha and Ten, because of Martha's unrequited longing for him.

The very first time I found myself liking Ten was Partners In Crime, as soon as Donna came onto the scene, and I am 100% sure it is because of the blatent lack of romantic tension.

[penmage.livejournal.com]

I also a little bit saw Romana II/Four, but that worked for me more because they were on equal playing fields--she was also a Time Lord, so it felt like a very equal relationship, rather than a companion pining for the Doctor she can never completely understand.

[penmage.livejournal.com]

That bothers me a little bit less, because there is something to be said about having one central person as your anchor. No matter what kind of career and life and plan you have, there's always a temptation to toss it over if a fantastic opportunity comes around--but if there's a person who you love, who loves you, in the mix, it's much harder to give it all up.

I get the whole feminist thing, and believe me, I'm totally there. But it just doesn't bother me in this one.

[penmage.livejournal.com]

YES. So very yes. Doctor/anybody pairings squick me hard, as an old Who fan. It just feels wrong.

[penmage.livejournal.com]

Yes! I totally agree with this. Fandom's preoccupation with shipping is why I'm not really that fannish, in a writing fic kind of way. For me, Who is just not a shippy show.

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

Even though I started with Nine (I've gone back and watched the old stuff since then, but Nine was my first Doctor), I'm totally with you on the Rose thing. I read her dynamic with Nine as non-romantic, and I liked it... and the overt romance between her and Ten set me completely against Rose later on. For some reason it never made me dislike Ten, but Rose... argh. A lot of that is the way fandom plays her, but she just drove me up the wall after a while.

Poor Martha. I loved her, but I hated that whole unrequited-love subplot. It was such a relief to me that they never pulled anything stupid and romantic with Donna - she was brilliant, but there was so much of her and Ten protesting that they weren't together that I kept expecting them to go that way, and dreading it.

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

I'm assuming you're referring to Barbara, who really was totally fantastic. I've only seen one episode with her ("The Dalek Invasion of Earth"), but I was absolutely thrilled to discover how awesome and kickass she was. ♥

I like to pretend that Sarah was just manipulating the Doctor to make him feel bad, or having a bad day or something, with "School Reunion." I have no idea what other possible explanation could exist for the total lack of continuity in her character there.

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

Familial bonds can be just as strong as intimate partnership ones without having to add incest - really.

Totally with you, there. In fact, that's been a bit of a crisis for me lately, in one of my newer fandoms - there's a pair of characters who are not related, but who have somewhat of a familial relationship... and, on the other hand, something of a slightly twisted Something Else going on, too. And it's been bothering me constantly as I try to figure out which direction I want to go with it, because it pits my inherent distaste for anything incestuous against... er... the fact that these two genuinely (IMHO) have absurd chemistry and a lot of weeeeeeeeeeeird interactions and subtextual strangeness pointing in other directions.

....Or possibly it's just that I'm absurdly obsessed with one of the two actors and am developing an insidious crush on the other. Long story short, the comment you referred to at the beginning of your comment wasn't me accusing you of accusing me of anything (....sentence problem there, wow), but rather me going "eep, I am GUILTY!! I'm a bad fangirl!!!" *headdesk*

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

Exactly. The equality of their relationship makes it okay, by my standards. The power dynamic is totally different, and it's not like a companion going on about "Ooo, I love the Doctor, he's so wonderful and special and alien," it's "Oh, I really like this guy. He's fun."

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

RTD is a lazy, lazy writer who used the most obvious, superficial tricks possible to make his point

That's really what it comes down to. He's just... impressively clueless when it comes to the stupid crap he does. I don't think he actually hates women or minorities or anything - I think he's just a complete spaz who doesn't pay attention to the way the things he writes look.

And you really hit the nail on the head about how the OldWho women would have laughed at the way the new ones are pigeonholed. I keep picturing Sarah Jane, Liz Shaw, and Romana all talking to Martha, Rose, and Donna, and just being like, "....you let him do WHAT? Oh, no.... no, no, no. You can't be serious."

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

It's annoying that now you can't even argue the Rose thing because it's definitely undeniably in canon. As is Martha and Jack.

That's a big part of my complaint against NewWho, yeah. I mean, I respect if people don't want to see Romana/Doctor. I respect if people either do or don't want to see Sarah/Doctor (which I can sort of see), or Ace/Doctor (which I totally can't, for the record), or even... oh, I don't know. Adric/Doctor. Which is a big "eewwwww" for me, but I respect that some people see it. That's okay! Because the show leaves it open for our interpretation. But in NewWho, it's like "no more options for you! This is what's happening, that's it, and that's the only way you can take it!" And that kind of pisses me off, because if it weren't for the outright declarations we've seen, in my world, Rose and Martha would both have seen the Doctor as just good friends. (...Although Jack would still be in love with him, because I think Jack in love with the Doctor is the cutest thing ever. And anyway, Jack falls head-over-heels in love with everybody, the way I see him.)

I'm a little dubious about Moffat, too, but at the same time... I just love the way he writes, so I'm willing to give him as many chances as humanly possible. I saw "Coupling" after seeing him write for DW, but I adored it in its own right. ♥

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

Oh, no - that's not what I mean. The Doctor would love Ace still (....part of the thing with Ace is that she's like a daughter to him, as far as I read their relationship, and the extent to which they're devoted to each other in that way is absurdly cute). What I meant was that the writers wouldn't have her on, anymore. They just wouldn't.

And you totally need to see some Ace. Possibly it's just that I have a silly crush on her, but I adore her. Probably my 2nd or 3rd favorite companion of all time. ♥

[narsilion.livejournal.com]

I loved her in the fic you wrote. And I do eed to see some episodes with her!