in which people are home, and writers are mean

[rivendellrose]

First things first, miss_arel is home at last, and the house is full - we went out to the airport to pick her up (thank you again, narsilion!!~), and then had a lovely evening of dinner and sitting around listening to (and singing with) musicals, and plum tart made by maymargaret. Wonderful tasty stuff. All very happy and good.

And then, of course, I could no longer resist the siren call of the B5 season 5 discs.



Episode 1: No Compromise

Let me first say that I've had a bad past experience with Tracy Scoggins, so I was fully expecting to dislike Lochley. Besides, that whole taking over for Ivanova thing... that's bound to make me irritable at someone, right? Surprisingly, not so much. I don't especially like her, but she's shockingly inoffensive and, honestly, perfectly acceptable as a stick-in-the-mud military bureaucrat. Go figure.

Our new telepath friend, on the other hand... I can see I have a new contender for "Jen's least favorite character." This position having formerly been held by the likes of the "eye" from the first season, and Jason Ironheart of the terrible acting... yeah. This guy's not that bad, yet, but I presume he's the one eye_of_a_cat referred to as the most universally hated character in all of B5. Aside from just generally disliking his attitude, his plot-device-y-ness, his lack of emotion, and, most notably, his hair, I just have to ask... So, how is it that these people, who are supposedly refugees and renegades, have such dapper and stylish suits, and obnoxiously coifed hair? Please.

G'Kar wins (as always, but this time specifically) for the best inauguration speech ever: "Do you want to be president? Then put your hand on the book and say 'I do.'" Also, I adored his decision to come back into the room when they thought the assassin was going to kill Sheridan. Good, brave, noble G'Kar. ♥

Also, the beard? Very suitable on Sheridan. Makes him look more dignified and, as miss_arel pointed out, less like a boy scout. I approve.

Is it just me, or does Delenn (and/or Mira?) look really tired in these first few episodes. I mean... even at the beginning, when from pure plot reasons she really shouldn't have anything at all to look worn and worried over. Maybe it was the colors they had her in, or new makeup or something. I did notice that the edges in everyone's makeup seemed more obvious than I recalled... but this might be because I was watching on our TV instead of my computer, and the film quality seems to be a bit better in this season, as well. Interesting.

More on all of that later, perhaps.

Update: Oh, and a moment of redemption from one of my longest-held complaints! We are reminded here that the Narn have at least three religious systems, and G'Kar says something about the major religious texts of all the races in the alliance. I must say, he was writing awfully small if he fit the first page of each into that thin a book... but hey, I love G'Kar, so I'll just smile and nod.

Also, the guy who runs the Lurker's guide seems to be under the (to me, completely unfathomable) impression that G'Kar meant the book to be the statement of purpose that Sheridan requested for the alliance. I felt more that he was including the book as part of the ritual, as a symbol of what he said, which struck me as exactly the statement of purpose that Sheridan had asked for. If taken from a very G'Kar sort of angle, of course. ;)

And lastly? What Sheridan said about G'Kar's eloquence putting chills down his spine? I'm surprised that JMS didn't break his own wrist patting himself on the back so hard. Self-congratulation, much? *Headdesk* No shame, I swear... no shame.

Episode 2: The Very Long Night of Londo Mollari

First, a totally random note: British Minbari? I suppose I shouldn't be surprised (as miss_arel pointed out, "Yugoslavian Minbari..."), but... that just totally threw me. I mean, yes, Delenn's accent always kind of amused me in comparison to the other Minbari who speak standard American English (or close to it, at least), but... hell, I don't know. At that point, all I could think was "no wonder Marcus fit in so well with them."

...Leave me alone, it was past midnight when we watched this. :P

Time for Londo to finally prove that no, he doesn't really think he can just skip off into the sunset after all the bad shit he pulled. I was glad to see consequences to all that he'd done, and to see that he had to finally confront G'Kar and his guilt, even if only in his mind. And the whole thing was worth it for the look on poor little Vir's face when Londo said he was sorry. Such shock. Oh, and also for G'Kar playing the part of Cartagia. That rocked.

Incidentally, it seems that no one thought to point out to Andreas that he was pronouncing Cartagia totally differently from how everyone else does? I could have sworn he said "Cayrtaygia." Ah well. Must be that... Narn accent. Or something.

"I thought that might be" (or something like that), says Sheridan the bastard. That answers my question of whether or not he noticed... "Three is a crowd," he says. And then when Delenn (in much obvious distress) remarks that three is sacred in Minbari culture, he makes a threesome joke. Thank you, Sheridan. Because inappropriate humor is fun when bad things are happening - I'm sure your wife much appreciates your sensitivity to her pain. XP Yet another moment on the list of times when, if I were Delenn, I would've wanted to smack him.

I've always felt that Delenn needs Lennier to ground her, if only because it seems he's the only Minbari around with whom she can be herself. She needs to be around one of her own people - she's already had to give up being accepted as one of them, and now she's not even to have one at her side to remind her of where she comes from? This pisses me off immensely. And not just because I had a rather nice story in progress that is now totally screwed because I assumed that the Bad Things that I'd accidentally absorbed vague spoilers about would take at least halfway through the season to happen. So much for that... Also, so much for "Delenn would totally know that to say that she knew would shame Lennier." I suppose it's better than making him actually say it, but... that whole conversation was excruciating for me. Also, bringing up his oath? Not really the greatest choice... I know it'd be hard not to, but does the guy not have enough guilt going on already?

I have Serious Doubts about the direction has gone with Lennier, though. I see what you mean about things that seem... potentially out of character, oszras (and also why you feel that he's selfish and... really not that great a guy. It's... troubling, to me, too. I can understand leaving - that makes sense to me, even, in that he's grown up a lot from the naive acolyte who thought he could serve her forever without any consequences, knowing that she was destined for another. And I can understand taking Marcus' place among the Rangers - those two had a bond, I've always thought that, and I like the symmetry it creates. What's bothering me is what he said about becoming worthy of her, becoming what she... I can't remember his exact words at the moment, but he came extremely close to saying that he was trying to be someone that she would want. And as much as I can see him feeling that way, I can't imagine him ever admitting it, even to himself. This is going to take some serious mental work on my part to understand, because that mind is not working in the way I'd thought it was, anymore. To say that just doesn't seem right, not with the way I've been interpreting his behavior and words up to this point. I need to think about this.

Lennier and Vir at the little bar-thingy made me very happy. Um. Except for the almost making me cry at the end. Vir hugging Lennier was really adorable, and it made the whole thing a lot more real and immediate. Great choice in terms of the story, but I was ready to kill JMS for twisting the knife that one extra time. Anyway, I'm glad to see that they've become/stayed friends since the last time we saw them like that.

He and Delenn have traded places - now he's the one trying to sneak off without saying goodbye, and she's the one who chases after looking bereft. That was a nice touch, there. I tried very hard not to resent Sheridan when he appeared. I mostly succeeded, even. I really do like Sheridan, most of the time, I just... was already mad at him for earlier in the episode, and as much as I liked that he was there for her, I still wanted to be irritable at him for... sticking his nose into things he doesn't understand, I guess. Or maybe just sticking his nose into a very poignant goodbye.

Someone (oszras?) pointed out that in one of the little behind-the-scenes bits in S1, the makeup designer talked about the variance in the Minbari headcrests. The women carve their crests (argh, how much I wish that for once people could not assume that women would be the ones to do that kind of stuff!), and for those who leave their crests... au naturel, the spikier and taller crests indicate greater... I think the original thing said violence. Masculinity or the equivalent of testosterone would probably apply equally well. In any case, when Lennier turned back to say goodbye to Delenn we got a painfully telling look at how smooth and rounded his crest was compared to the rangers lined up around him. *Wibbles* It very much made me want to snuggle him.

I need to watch those bits over again, so that I can get the exact dialogue and nuances down. I won't be happy until I understand what's going on in that bony little skull of Lennier's.

...Heh. Londo almost dies and goes through an agonizing period of soul-searching and redemption, and I'm worried about Lennier. Typical of me.

Dear gods I need to go to bed.

Update: Totally random. I had a Moment yesterday, long before I started watching the DVDs - I was reading an (actually rather dull and not that terrifically written) historical novel about the middle ages, and they referenced the story of Arthur, Gueniviere, and Lancelot. And I read right past it... and then flashed on Marcus with his whole "next thing you'll be saying that he's not Merlin..." pointing at Kosh. And then stopped, with a "HUH" so emphatic that one of the housemates turned and asked me what was up. Hello, literary allusion that'd been staring me flat in the face for two seasons without my noticing. *Headdesk*

...Please to be not going any further with that allusion, okay JMS? Thank you. :P

Comments

[cyranocyrano.livejournal.com]

hmm hmm hmm scrolling down so as to avoid spoilers hmm hmm hmm
Point of Interest: Is 'Narsilion' pronounced 'Narsilyun' or 'Narsi Lion'?

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

Boy do I know that feeling... ;)

I pronounce it Narsilyun, and I'm... 90% sure that she does, too. Now that you've asked I'm having a crazy moment of doubt, because I don't think I've heard her say it in a really long time. But I'm fairly sure.

[windrose.livejournal.com]

You finally got to G'Kar's inauguration ceremony! I love that, especially the "Good, fine, let's eat" at the end. *g*

What You Said about Lennier. If it makes you feel any better, even Bill Mumy was horribly upset at the direction JMS wound up taking Lennier, and lobbied hard to have him change it. Or so the story goes.

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

Yes! ♥ That was the cutest thing ever.

Argh. Argh argh argh argh argh. I don't blame him in the slightest for being upset, and if that's the case then I'm even more irritated with JMS. I understand that the writers and producers and all always get the last say, but damn it, they ought to try listening to the actors occasionally, too! Sometimes they know what they're talking about!

[spazzychic.livejournal.com]

Keep in mind that you're going to find plotholes in the first handfull of episodes in Season 5. JMS didn't expect to GET a season 5 so he pulled some stuff out of his butt on it. As a result, the first 5 or so episodes of the season are arguably the most poorly crafted of the season (but who can forget Green! Purple!)

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

Yeeeeeeeah. Plotholes like "hey, I thought C&C had to clear starfuries or the docking clamps wouldn't disengage"? Just a tiny little detail...

I've been told that it gets better, so I'm okay with this. I'll just continue to be cranky in his direction for slapping complete disasters (and at-least-temporary-disappearances) on all three of my favorite characters in the span of three episodes. Marcus, Susan, and then Lennier, just like that. Thank god G'Kar's still around...

[spazzychic.livejournal.com]

...

I cannot respond to this comment or the spoiler police will come after me with nightsticks.

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

ARGH.

*Runs away from computer, temptation, and the terror of Things to Come*

[spazzychic.livejournal.com]

My work here is done.

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

*Clings to the icon because it's cute*

S5: it's all about hair

[oszras.livejournal.com]

So much to comment on. :D

No Comprimise:

Okay I totally hated the first episode, mainly because of Locchely and Sheridan. I hate it when creators bash the audience over the head with the 'you will love her!!!!'-stick. Because seriously? I can make up my own mind on a character thank you very much. And Sheridan because while I understand what he was getting at about not bowing down to terrorists the Civil War isn't that far in the past. He has to tread lightly in regards of what he does and says. He doesn't think like a polictian and while that's good you can't run an Alliance like a army. He totally pissed me off with all of his yammering. Btw, what did you think of JMS solution to the whole living situation with D/S? And the telepath colony?

Byron has to be the worst actor in S5, much worse than Pat Tallman (Lyta) I think. Blech. It's like with Sinclair I think I might like the character on the page but the actor just makes him as annoying as hell.

G'Kar will Always win. Always. I thought that 'chills' line was more of a kudos to Andreas but yeah it could be JMS blowing his on horn I never thought of it that way. Mostly because Andreas did give me chills in that speech in S2.

Also I was never attracted to Sheridan until S5, the beard is a turn on. I liked it. Before he was just blah to me.

The Very Long Night of Londo Mollari:

Totally loved this storyline. The dream sequence was absolutely the best part, gah, so much love. And yes Vir's look at the apology to G'Kar was perfect. I had noticed G'Kar saying Cartagia's name differently. :D
And the whipping part? No words man, Andreas and Peter rocked that whole scene. Actually they blew me away through it all. I loved the Delenn dream sequence, all of really but that was cool that he saw her as a prophet/fortune teller.

I can't remember if the threesome line Sheridan said pissed me off or not but now I find it so funny (because I thought the same thing too just for a second - what I am a perv you know?). Mainly because it's the way she says it, so wistful or something. It cracked me up. Plus I figured since Lennier said they were having dinner with them I thought that he probably did have a lot of dinners with them and Sheridan wanted more time with her alone and...I don't know, I'm just rambling I can't get out what I want to say right.

And yeah I thought she went a little to far with the 'but you promised yourself to me' but after many times of just going back and rewatching that scene. I think she said it to remind him he was braking a promise which the Minbari feel pretty strong about but also probably because she loved him and he was leaving her. I think she felt so bad about the whole situation that she just couldn't or didn't want to think that his feelings went deeper than infatuation. Deep down she probably knew but...you know she really didn't want to know. Or something, that didn't make any sense I'm sorry I'm trying to get what I think is happening in her head but I'm not doing very well.

[oszras.livejournal.com]

GAAAHHHH! Stupid LJ. Two parter, sorry.

Also, I think Sheridan wants to help but he doesn't know how or even what to do to make her feel better. I've been trying to see his pov in the episodes to get a better understanding of his character so bear with me on this. But he's trying to help but he knows Delenn needs to have space and he likes Lennier and he wants to help him. I think he wanted to tell Lennier that he wouldn't take Lennier's place in Delenn's heart. That he wasn't taking Delenn away from Lennier. And he did let them have their goodbye alone to give them space, and I think he was there to just be there for her. Of course this is just me trying to see things through his eyes so I could be totally off. Also I felt that Sheridan was sticking his nose where it didn't belong, but after watching it again I think he was just trying to help in his stupid big dumb puppy way.

Now you know why I think this plotline wasn't handled right, it seemed off to me. Also, I know Lennier had a bond with Marcus but your right about Lennier wanting to be someone Delenn would want. He wanted to become someone she would love in a romantic sense. Not a good idea. Never a good idea.

I loved the Vir/Lennier scene. :D

That was me saying that about the headcrests. The men were au naturel. And the spikier they are shows how agressive they are, like deer antlers. I agree about the women thing too.

I was more concerned about Londo, heh. I could have cared less about Lennier. But I did go back to re-watch the episode a few nights ago and I watched the Lennier stuff more carefully so you are rubbing off on me. (Maybe. I still don't like him. XD)

Dude I can't believe you just got that, when I watched that epi I was like 'oh god no. JMS don't even think about it'. I so didn't want Sheridan and Delenn to end up like Arthur and Gwen.

And I totally noticed Delenn/Mira's makeup, she does look tired so it's not just you.

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

He does, he does, and I appreciated that he was there for her, but at the same time I was so irritated with him for not seeming to understand how hard the situation was for her, earlier in the episode... argh. This is the thing I have to be super careful about, I tend to absorb attitudes from the characters I write the most, even if I know they're not accurate. It's just the way I get used to thinking. I got Lennier's jealousy over Sheridan wrapped in my brain, and it makes me want to kind of lash out at him. He was trying to help, and he is just a big dumb puppy... and that makes him my easiest target when I'm upset on Lennier and Delenn's behalf. :P

I'm still hoping to write that fic from his POV, but now it's switched to being set in this episode... which changes a lot. But I'm really interested to get his perspective on the whole thing.

I'm very annoyed with JMS for going in that direction with Lennier, but I guess... like I've always said, he's not perfect. He wants to be, very badly, but he's just not. I still think that admitting that he wants to become someone she could be interested in is just going too damned far, especially admitting it to her. I can't even imagine him admitting it to himself, honestly. And I feel so bad for the actor, knowing that he was against this.

Okay, I thought it was you with the headcrests. I'd actually seen that little special before, but I was glad to have it at the top of my mind when I saw this...

I don't know why, it just never clicked until yesterday! I think I... I don't know. I must have thought of it at some point in the past but forgotten, maybe, or maybe it just never really hit me. I feel really dumb for not having been aware of it earlier!

Poor thing, I don't know what they did to her, but it just looked so wrong.

[oszras.livejournal.com]

I have the tendancy to lash out at characters I don't like even when it might not be warrented. Lennier is a good example, I started disliking him in S3 and it just morphed into this full on rage by S5. He could show up in a scene and I would just start twitching. XD

Weird thing is it's only Lennier, I dislike Sheridan for a lot of reasons but I still like him overall but Lennier just makes me want to shake him really hard.

Hmm, I agree except, except I don't think he knows what to do with those feelings he has. It's a problem and he isn't really close with any Minbari that we've seen so far for him to ask advice. He is really only got Delenn to go to advice for and we know the problem with that. He might have been talking outloud forgetting that she was who she was or just trying to get out what he was feeling... I don't know. I'm gonna have to go re-watch that again. My dislike for him gets in the way of that scene. So does my love for the headcrest.

I don't think Bill was against the plotline just the way it was...handled...at the end of the show.

No worries, you're not dumb I'm just really sensitive to romantic plotlines and I really hate it when someone does wrong. (that would be most of the way movies and books handle them. Angst is good, not much mushy-ness and solid characterization. Never gonna happen I know) So I just dreaded the D/S storyline, like I said before to me their relationship went one of two ways in the show: as a gag (like the Shan-Fal I think it was *supposed* to be funny) or Arthur/Gwen sybolism all over the place. I dislike both of those cliches but I'm a weird fan-girl, what can I say?

To me they never got the whole costume thing down for Mira except during the first four episodes of S4 where ironically Sheridan was nowhere near her and he was the one that looked like shit. XD

[oszras.livejournal.com]

P.S.

Okay, I thought it was you with the headcrests. I'd actually seen that little special before, but I was glad to have it at the top of my mind when I saw this...

When am I not thinking of the headcrests? XD

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

I would tease you mercilessly if I weren't almost equally fascinated....

[oszras.livejournal.com]

Ahh conversion it leaves me with such glee. XD

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

I love how opposite our reactions are to him - it just amuses the living daylights out of me, given how similar we think on other subjects. For some reason, I just... never fail to love him, and it only occurs to me later to be irritated with him. And even then the best I can work up is an 'everybody fucks up' kind of attitude. It's kind of bizarre. o_O I keep trying to work out how I got to be so fond of him, and I just... I don't know what it is. I know the loyalty thing really pushed my buttons, and I have a total thing for unrequited love, but beyond that... I'm mystified.

I will say that I have an image, now, of Lennier trying to talk to Vir about all of this. Bringing it up in the sense of feelings for one's mentor, and I can so imigine Vir having a moment of complete WTF and sort of... horror at the mental images that'd put in his head about Londo. "Um. No, actually, I can't imagine that." ♥

It's weird, because I was totally aware of Sheridan and Delenn as the Arthur/Gwenivere analogy. But somehow I never made that one extra leap. *Headdesk* The worst thing is that I know I'd figured out that Lennier was in love with her when that whole Arthurian thing came up. Talk about spazzing... I'm such a bad English major not to catch that!

I was okay with a lot of the Delenn/Sheridan stuff, but occasionally it goes just a bit too cutesy for me and makes me want to smack Sheridan, 'cause it's usually him who says something that makes me go "bleh." I have a feeling Mira Furlan could probably say anything and one way or another I'd be like "ohhhh... yeah..." I blame the voice.

The Shan-Fal thing probably would have been funny to some degree if I hadn't been in total agonies over Lennier at that point. No... I'm not obsessive at all... :P

I'm still voting for first season, but that's just me loving the full Minbari look. :D

I don't think Bill was against the plotline just the way it was...handled...at the end of the show.

I'll just be over here, beating my head against my desk. I don't know how I will survive this season. *Whimpers*

[oszras.livejournal.com]

Heh. I know, I usually agree or understand where your coming from almost all the time. Except where Lennier is concerned. :D My reaction to him is to instantly become irritated and bitchy it's only later when you point something out or I try to see his pov (rarely do I do this. eww Lennier cooties. XD) that I might see why he did something.

Oh can't you just see that convo with Vir? Seeing as Vir has gotten only to one and that the Centauri are probably a casual sex type people and that it's Londo we're talking about, it be one hell of a confusing conversation.

Dude after that I was totally worrying about the other knights of the round table, and Morgana Le Fay. I was hoping Anna would be her and not Lyta.
I really didn't want to see Vorlon porn.

I blame her voice and the headcrest. Both types of headcrests too. Both are sexy.

I was in agony over Sheridan and the fact that five freaking Minbari would be listening and praying outside. It still skeeves me out. I didn't even think of Lennier until he was in the elevator and then he royally pissed me off with the 'Whoo-Hoo?' line.

Take a deep breath and think of the Londo and G'Kar plotline. See great acting will make anyone feel better. XD

[eye-of-a-cat.livejournal.com]

Argh, frustration... there is so much I keep wanting to type about Lennier's decision to leave and what I thought about it, but I don't trust myself to keep it unspoilery, so I'll just join you over here in wondering about The Great Byron's-Hair Puzzle. Mine never gets that shiny! What are they doing in Downbelow?

[eye-of-a-cat.livejournal.com]

Oh, and also! Quick warning that I have fic marked with spoilers up until The Very Long Night of Londo Mollari, but the comments on those have spoilers for the whole thing, so Beware.

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

Thank you for the warning! I actually already snuck off and read it once, but I'm holding off on commenting until I've had time to absorb all these new character... directions. And I did avoid the comments... I'm slowly learning to avoid temptation. ;)

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

I appreciate your restraint, even if it drives me crazy not to be able to talk to you about it! I saw three more episodes last night (and Day of the Dead is coming up, which I've heard some scary rumors about...), so I'm making progress.

Mine never gets that shiny!

And now we get to the heart of the issue - neither does mine! No wonder we hate him - not only is he annoying, smug, self-righteous, and prone to quoting Shakespeare, but he's a refugee who wears tailored suits and apparently gets a hot-oil treatment twice a week for his hair. Clearly, he's evil.