fandom blathering...

[rivendellrose]

I'm just full of spamming tonight, aren't I? Sorry. I'll cut this one, for the sake of all of you who are understandably sick of my natterings. ;) Edit: *Wince* Uhh... quick disclaimer. This was written very late last night, and pretty much just tossed off for the purposes of thinking things through for myself. I certainly don't mean to offend anybody, and I hope everyone can see it as it is - about 1/4 literary exercise and 3/4 random tangential blathering.



Among the graphic novels I read today was the Spiderman trade by J.M. Straczynski. It was okay. Unfortunately, I then picked up two of Joss' Astonishing X-Men trades and had my socks knocked off me by both the art and the writing, both of which had seemed fairly "meh" in the Spiderman trade. And this brought me back to something that I occasionally ponder lately - namely, what exactly is it that I like so much about B5? It sure as hell isn't the special effects. It was the 90s, though, and other series from the same period look pretty silly when compared with modern sfx, too. That's just kind of the deal with 90s sci-fi - CG was in its infancy, everybody wanted to play with it, but they couldn't really make it look decent yet. Not even on a bloated Star-Trek-franchise budget. So, not really a factor.

What is a factor, and what embarasses me frequently when I try to get new folks to watch B5, is dialogue. I love a bit of melodrama as much as the next twenty-something angst whore with a background in Shakespeare and Tolkien, but there's something slightly off the dialogue in B5. For one thing, the jokes about all the speeches... well, yes. Thank the gods that most of the worst were given to actors who had the chops to carry all that weight, but it really shouldn't have been required of them. It is not necessary to have your characters delivering oratory in nearly every damned episode. Some of it, I like. Some of it made my teeth grind. But I do think that a lot of it could have been pared down somewhat for the sake of semi-realistic storytelling. Not to mention sparing a lot of time spent around the conference room table focusing on one poor actor who's got a veritable soliloquy to deal with on a TV timeline. Believe me when I say that my heart went out to poor Mira Furlan on a couple of those speeches - I'm surprised there weren't more outtakes where she cracked under it all.

Anyway - the speeches. Sometimes they're great. Sometimes they make me want to get out a red pen and start cutting some deadwood. Worst are the times when speeches are passed off on actors who just couldn't hack it - I'm thinking especially of the early seasons, here, when the budget was clearly just not good enough to hire anybody with talent greater than should be seen in your average Clorox commercial. There were some really painful scenes in the first season, scenes that I'm honestly not sure how I survived for long enough to get into the later seasons when things got better. And that's another point. Gods know that I adore the characters, but there is some serious overacting that happens in this show. Some of it is called for (it's impossible to imagine Londo not being over the top, for instance - that's part of his charm!), but some of it is... ummm... well. I won't name names, because gods know that I love pretty much all the characters, but every now and then there are scenes that make me just want to avert my eyes. To be fair, this happens even with shows that were better received in general - I still twitch when I think of a particular scene in The X-Files, where David Duchovny's expression as Mulder cried at Scully's bedside unaccountably disturbed me, so badly that to this day I cannot see that scene without giggling in a very uncomfortable way. ...To those who know both series well, this might lead you directly to the actor whose 'virtue' I'm most attempting to protect by avoiding names, because this person has a tendency to make almost the exact same face that Duchovny did in that scene. But I digress. I avoid names only out of love. ♥

And now, my biggest, fattest gripe, and exactly the one that sent me off on a kitchen-rant at this morning - the greatest sin that any writer can commit, if you believe most writing teachers: Telling Rather Than Showing.

You'd think this'd be a hard thing to fall for TV of all things. It's easier to show than to tell in TV, right? You've got all the blessings of the visual media right there at your hands! You don't have to describe things, you just have to make the actors and the sfx guys put them on display, and voila! Instant showing. And yet, some writers can't seem to figure this out. And by "some writers," I mean JMS. And, apparently, Harlan Ellison, of whom I would have thought better (if only by virtue of his reputation - to my recollection, I've never actually read any of his work) had not the most egregious example of this been smack in the center of the B5 episode that he wrote. Mack and Bo... fun, but also the most annoying set of authorial sockpuppets I've seen this side of Fandom_Wank.

Examples? You betcha.

Mack: "You've seen him and Delenn together, right? Now that's true love, my friend. You don't see that very often."

If I may please say? Gag me. If people don't like John/Delenn by the fifth season, it's too late to bean them over the heads and try to convince them to like it. Having been one of those people who started out disliking their relationship and then slowly, ever-so-tentatively grew to respect it on some levels, I resented this in the extreme. I wanted to strangle JMS or Ellison, whichever was responsible for that line, and beat them over the head with the nearest writing manual. I suspect that this was JMS, however, because he's been guilty on other occasions, as well - at the beginning of S5, he seemed intent on making sure that the audience liked Lochley... and in order to do so, decided to keep smacking us with various characters saying some variation on "boy, I really like that new captain!" Transparent much?

The only time this didn't bother me was G'Kar's line about no one on the station being what they seemed. That one I'll forgive because... well, it's the truth. Yes, it was handwaving at the audience, but it was handwaving at something that we might otherwise not notice, so... that's important. Oh... I'll also forgive Marcus' line about "Next thing, you'll be saying that he [Kosh] isn't Merlin." That made me laugh a lot, and it was thematically necessary for that episode, I think. It's not all sockpuppetry that pisses me off... it's just when JMS starts trying to force his opinions down my throat that I get cranky. And dude, if we haven't decided that we'd happily go through hell and back to see Delenn's smile again, by the beginning of the frigging fifth season, we're never going to. I was already there, so you'll forgive me for getting a little irked at him jumping up and down on the feeling. Converesely, all the stuff about how charismatic Byron was. To this day, I do not see it. Charisma isn't something you can just force - an actor, a character, either has it, or s/he doesn't. Sometimes it resonates... sometimes it doesn't. For me, at least, Byron was about as charismatic as a board of plywood, and I got really sick of hearing how people would follow him into the jaws of death. I felt like JMS was trying to convince us on the basis of nothing other than characters telling us that... and, IMHO, that's a lame-ass way to establish charisma. Which is not to say that JMS wasn't capable of writing charisma or of casting actors with it... I'm unclear on what's the deciding factor in the case of that trait, but either way see G'Kar for an example of a character who undeniably had it, even long before he became a religious leader or anything special at all. Or Ivanova... or Delenn... or Dukhat...

It occurs to me to say that all this telling-and-not-showing is eerily reminiscent of another writer for whom I have a great deal of affection and respect, which feelings are very clearly also held by JMS... Tolkien. However. What works for an Oxford don writing modern mythology in the style of ancient ballads and epics does not necessarily apply to modern television scriptwriters. This is not just the Tolkien fangirl defending her hero; this is a student of literature trying to be aware of the differences between genres and what is acceptable in them. Tolkien did not write as a modern novelist, he wrote as an ancient epic-writer - that was his mode, and those were the standards by which I think he should be judged. Different rules apply. But it's still damned disconcerting to the modern reader, and I think it's why a lot of people have a hard time with his books.

Now that I've laid out everything that I dislike about B5... why do I still like this show? Why do I write fic for a series that I sometimes feel was poorly-written, or watch a show that, to my mind, has a lot of problems?

1. Characters. I am a character-whore - I loooove characters, often regardless of their context. It started with Ivanova, G'Kar and Londo, and it just kind of grew from there... a lot faster, I admit, after Sinclair left. Best twist of fate ever that the actor had to leave for a while... better fortune couldn't be planned. That man's acting made me want to chew the furniture. But I have such fondness for the other characters, and most particularly for their beautiful and realistic flaws, that I was already hooked. A lot of people seem to dislike that these characters really aren't the nicest people sometimes... I think it's honestly what I love about them. Particularly someone like Delenn, who even JMS comes close to deifying a lot of the time. She's so beautifully flawed, so wonderfully manipulative and controlling and delightfully confident of her own importance in the universe. All those wonderful, emotionally broken characters... I admit, I eat that stuff up.

2. A cohesive plot-arc. Oh my god, this seemed like a miracle to me as I watched it unfold. What do you mean, episodes in the first season are actually relevent? Like... not just a few of them? But most of them? For someone who cut her sci-fi teeth on Star Trek, this is like some kind of holy grail, heard of but never fully imagined.

3. Tangential to number 1 - a sci-fi universe that works like the real world. I admit, the whole Star Trek notion of "there's no more racism or poverty and the government is inherently good and Our People never do anything wrong!" always bothered me. A lot. It's still possible that at the time of its original showing, I would have been too immature to really appreciate the morality and ethical questions of B5, but as a twenty-something with a good bit of education behind me, oh man do I ever love it. Here is poverty. Here is political machination. Here is religion still existing and being important not only to aliens, but to humans as well (the greatest flaw of the Star Trek 'verse, IMHO - a need to completely ignore the fact that humans still have the problems they showed in the alien species they dealt with). Here are atrocities being committed by otherwise good people, and true foibles of the human spirit. Addiction, manipulation, and downright cruelty. People being felled by their greatest virtues. It makes me very happy, in the moments when I wasn't curled up in a ball staring at the screen in horror and sorrow on behalf of these poor characters. ;)

So that's my story - that's why I'm still here making icons and writing fic even when I occasionally rant and rave against various bits and pieces of the storyline, and even when I can freely admit that other shows come off a damn sight better. I don't know if that's significant to anybody but me, but I'm happy to have written it all out, I guess.

Incidentally, I really do have stuff I should be doing. I'm just insane and tend to get off on "must write informal essay for no apparent reason" mode sometimes. ...I scare myself sometimes. *Sighs*

Comments

[aris-tgd.livejournal.com]

I have to side with you on the loving B5 in spite of its flaws, mostly for the characters. For example, the absolutely brilliant path that Londo and G'Kar take, from the snarling at each other in the Zocalo in the very first episode, to G'Kar toasting the health of Turhan, to Londo coming asking for his help, to "... But I can forgive you." That's... amazing. And when JMS is on, he is spot on.

When he's off, I want to strangle him. Almost the entirety of No Compromises, for example. Also, I didn't actually like Sleeping in Light all that much. Heresy! Also, the more I re-watch Season 1, the more I like Sinclair. Also, the more I watch Parliament of Dreams the more I like the crazy, not-quite-on romantic dialogue between Sinclair and Sakai, so...

In any case, I love the show. It manages to hit my particular cool buttons. For people who don't love it, I just feel a slight sadness that something which brings me joy doesn't bring them joy.

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

Ohhhh, yes. The relationship between the two of them was all-around wonderful.

Also, I didn't actually like Sleeping in Light all that much.

You want to know a secret? I hated that last scene with Sheridan and Delenn. Flat-out couldn't stand the thing. I liked some parts of the episode (ummm.... okay, mostly I liked seeing Ivanova again. I probably could have tolerated anything to see her again, at that point), but the dialogue in that goodbye scene between Sheridan and Delenn made me want to spork out my eyeballs, stuff cotton in my ears, and then buy chocolate for Mira and Bruce to wash the bad taste out of their mouths.

And yes, "No Compromises" was awful. I kind of felt like the title was a very bad joke, almost like he was aware that he was wandering off into craptastic-land and had just decided to see whether he could get away with it if he made it obvious enough...

I like the dialogue between them, too... but mostly because I adore making fun of them. It's so... it's like a bad parody of a Bogart movie or something. Maybe I'm just sensitive about Sinclair, though - something about that man rubbed me the wrong way from day one, though I've never quite been able to put a finger on it.

[aris-tgd.livejournal.com]

You want to know a secret? I hated that last scene with Sheridan and Delenn. Flat-out couldn't stand the thing.

YES. I would have forgiven him just about anything if instead of that goddamn "brightest star in my sky" crap he'd actually REFERENCED that goddamn "place where no shadows fall" that he DROPPED IN HINTS TO TWICE BEFORE hem. But augh. That scene drives me crazy. Kill thy darlings, JMS!

And I'm sorry that Sinclair doesn't make you happy. He makes me happy.

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that was really frustrating. I hate when writers drop an important ball like that. 'Kill thy darlings' indeed - that's clearly one writing-center lesson the man never took to heart. :P

He did make me happy sometimes, I'll admit. The practical jokes (I'm thinking of the breakfast one they played on Ivanova) were hilarious. So I can see where you're coming from on at least a few levels. *g*

[windrose.livejournal.com]

JMS cribbed a lot of the speeches from famous orators. I couldn't specifically tell you which speeches, and who, exactly, he cribbed them from, but Kath used bitch at length about it, as well as his tendency to beat the point home with a jackhammer.

She also used to bitch about how their private conversations used to show up as dialog in first season episodes; that throw-away line about frictionless sheets in the pilot? Classic Kath. It's one of the main reasons I haven't watched Season 1 again since she died.

What You Said about cohesive story arcs and flawed, human characterizations. I love Gene Roddenberry, but his rose-tinted view of the future was just too utopian to ever be fully believable.

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

Yeah, there's a lot of surgery being done with chainsaws, in terms of hammering points home, a lot of the time. And... I am disquieted by the cribbing. Borrowing thematically, okay, fine... borrowing line is a Bad Thing, and makes me twitch.

I've been known to occasionally snag a line of dialogue or two from my housemates, but... for crying out loud, that's for fic. Doing it for something to be published is more than a bit lame, I think. Yikes.

Exactly. It's a nice vision, but in terms of realism, it's lacking. And honestly, as much as I bitch about how people scare me... I think I kind of prefer them with all their warts and flaws, deep down. At least in terms of fiction, if not real life. ;)

[nolivingman.livejournal.com]

I forgive JMS for much because he created characters who felt like people and who did things because of their personality and not just because the plot required it. Too many creators morph their characters to fit where they want the story to go, and too many creators lose the voice of their characters at some point in a long series - JMS never did. If you look at the characters in the first season, and look at them at the end, they are completely the same people, and how they got where they ended up is clear.

Also, his universe made sense; it's obvious it was thought-through. I watch the new BSG, and there's much I like about it, but it's not holding together IMO because the villains don't seem to have a motivation beyond "kill humans" - something JMS was always good about was making his villains have reasonable motives for what they're doing.

And yes, Mack needed to be hit over the head. And I LOVE Delenn/Sheridan, but that still bugged the crap out of me. Sometimes I think I love that romance in spite of the way it was written. *shrug*

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

Totally with you on that one - the characters stay true to themselves, even when they end up in a place that they would never have imagined ending up. Londo and G'Kar are both perfect examples, but really it's true of all of them. They change in ways that come directly out of their own behaviour, and I love that.

Yes, the universe as a whole is very well organized and thought-out. I'd love to have more information on some of the cultures, but that's me going crazy anthropologist on the show. I'm never content with the amount we know about a culture - I always wish I could write a whole enthnography. ;)

It's interesting you mention BSG in that way, since I've heard nothing but glowing reviews of it. Dealing with morality and the Big Questions, attacking contemporary issues... interesting to hear that with all of that they'd have trouble with their antagonists' motivations. That's sad.

Gods yes. Funny at times, but... eugh. As you say, Delenn/Sheridan seem to suffer from a bad case of the writing. Perhaps if their love had been written as a bit less mythic, a bit less 'destined,' I would have liked it more. Maybe if we'd seen a little more of them growing together... I don't know. They were horribly cute together sometimes, but at other times the whole thing seemed very... forgive me, I'm not awake yet; the only term I can think of is "pasted on." Ouch.

...And of course I was off being a sucker for the whole Lennier/Delenn thing. It probably just comes down to JMS not force-feeding us the Lennier thing - he moved too damned fast with Sheridan and Delenn, pushed it a little too much, and my natural contrariness must've kicked in. ;)

[nolivingman.livejournal.com]

Re BSG: I think my flist might be different than much of BSG fandom, cause they (I should say "we" cause I am too) seem to be pointing out the flaws more than the majority of posts I see linked to in the fandom newsletter. We critique everything though - no unconditional love on my flist. But the second season did in general get a fair amount more criticism than the first, and there is some this season as well.

Re shippiness: I'm convinced that no matter how much we in fandom like to make manifestos about why one couple is better than another, it mostly comes down to personal taste. Delenn and Sheridan (individually) I love like burning; putting them together hit all my buttons. *shrug* Funny how that happens.

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

Interesting. If I do try it, I'll have to make sure I start with the first season, then. I've caught the occasional rumblings of "grr, this isn't the same" but I could never tell whether it was people being angry about what was happening or people being angry about where the show or the show's quality was headed.

And 'no unconditional love' is a good way to go about fandom, I think. Saves a lot of flame-wars and angst, as well as just being a more intelligent way to go about things, being willing to see the flaws as well as the shiny bits.

Goodness yes - shipping is almost completely about personal taste! It just fascinates me, what different opinions come out on the same characters - you'd think, especially with a writer who tends to be a bit ham-handed at times, that we'd all have somewhat the same interpretations of characters, but it's not true at all! It's enthralling to me, to see what different conclusions people come to. Personally, I adore Delenn and tend to regard Sheridan as sort of a very cute overgrown puppy. They're obviously happy together, and horribly cute sometimes, but I get a little caught up sometimes in what I see as the flaws in their relationship. And for some reason other characters caught my attention in terms of writing. ;)

[londonkds.livejournal.com]

Here through the Universe Today community.

Agree with most of this here, but Michael O'Hare as Sinclair grows on me. He is good in the more thoughtful moments, the problem is that various writers fall back on giving him very clichéd macho action-hero lines at times, and unlike some of the other actors he can't give stock lines individual personality.

And I do think that a lot of B5 fans who like Delenn see her with much more moral ambiguity than JMS seemed to...

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

I'm a little embarassed at having my randomness linked to, but... hey, I love meeting new people, so I'm not about to complain. ;)

He grew on me, too, at times, and you're very right that the writing was a big part of the problem. The poor guy just didn't have the chops to handle the kind of junk they threw at him, and that's not his fault. I also may be guilty of blaming a lot of the early problems on him, since it seemed like the whole show got a lot better in the second season. It's always hard to tease out what changes make a difference, when there's multiple factors at work.

Oh yes. I think to some extent he was aware - "Never forget who and what I was," or something very like that, I believe was the quote. She may be a very cute and charming diplomat, devoted wife and eventual mother, etc, but she's also a leader, capable of the cold calculation that entails, as well as all sorts of manipulation, downright arrogance at times, and a whoooole lot of wrath when it comes to the people she cares about. She's damned tricky, and scary when she wants to be. I can never decide whether JMS genuinely forgot about that, or if he wanted us as the audience to, so that it'd be a bigger surprise whenever it showed.

[oszras.livejournal.com]

I have not been a good friend-list person or friender or whatever. :D

I usually just lurk because a lot of what you say I agree with and I feel stupid for just agree with every post - repetitive much?

Anyway here I agree.

Byron: Byron is the jaws of death.

The speeches: The speeches by G'Kar will always, always give me chills. Andreas was a God as was Peter and Mira. The some of the lines and speeches they were given, espeically Mira, were some of the most convaluted, long winded, tongue-twisting speeches but they pulled it off. I have no idea why they would give Sinclar long speeches, yeah he was from the stage acting part of...acting but that doesn't mean he would be good at tv. I mean I think, and this just a nobody who hasn't study any kind theatre or acting, the actor has to have a prensence on stage that just can't be shown on tv. And vice versa with acting on tv.

JMS pissed me off those last two years with the anvils. I don't like Lochley for a lot of things but mostly because JMS smacked me on the head so many times trying to make me like her through other characters. Don't make me like her through Vir, or Mack or Delenn, make me like her for herself.

You know I'm a 'shipper for Delenn/Sheridan and you know I didn't like how they were portrayed. I would have liked it a lot better and it could have worked, I know it could have worked, if JMS had let them evolve together. Let them become friends and more all he had to do was take out the mystical destiny stuff and make it more of a real relationship. I know he could have done it because he made the characters so real to me, so that couldn't be his problem. Anyway after all of that, that line still pissed me off. Ugh. Stop with the anvils JMS my brains are falling out!

I'm a character whore myself. You could have the best mind-twisting plot ever made but if the characters are bland, or cookie-cutter people who have no depth, no humanity I'll turn the tv off, or close the book. JMS is great a crating a story, keeping to the story and spectacular at creating real characters.

Heh. I also was so enraptured with the story-line. He plotted it from the very beginning, the pilot even. And it is a holy grail to me, with ST and all the other shows being about a moral or the flash-bang of special effects he was telling a story about people, empires and destiny. I love him for it, it *almost* makes up for the Lochely-anvils.

I also love the fact that the universe he created was filled with flawed, real people and the fact that everyone has good and bad in them. The bad guys weren't twitching their mustaches and caclkeling evilly, they had reasons - human reasons even they were not. I felt myself feeling for the bad guys as much as the good guys. (well not the shadows but that was because of the way he ended the storyline - I got the intellectual reason he did it but there wasn't any emotional resonance for me in it.)

I found that I loved the aliens more than the humans (Ivonova aside) G'Kar, Londo, Delenn were all bad guys at one point in the story but they were still good if that makes any sense.

I love sci-fi's like The Fifth Element and Blade Runner because of the gritty, real universes and to me JMS brought that realism into space and made it work wonderfully.

And it seems that I'm writing my own essay, so I'll stop now. I guess I should have just said ITA and left it at that. XD

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

Was Michael O'Hare theatre-trained? That might explain a few things... usually I prefer theatre-actors to pure TV-actors (they tend to have much more nuanced performances, IMHO), but sometimes there's a problem with toning things down for TV. You're very close to the camera, the audience gets in very close to the actors, whereas in theatre everything has to be BIG in order to be visible to the audience. Maybe he just never learned to tone it down. Interesting.

Anyway, I agree entirely with you on Andreas, Mira, and Peter being the best when it came to the speeches. I genuinely didn't care about how much they talked most of the time - I just loved listening to them! It's bad storytelling, sometimes, and some of those (especially Mira's, as you said) could have been cut a lot (poor woman... that's a lot of memorizing, especially in a language that isn't your first!), but... for the most part, it worked.

Don't make me like her through Vir, or Mack or Delenn, make me like her for herself.

I still count myself as perplexed that I liked her. I had so much bad baggage against the actress, to start out with, that I literally sat down ready to hate Lochley... and then got distracted along the way and ended up liking her almost immediately. It's possible that she hit my "dominant woman, must roll over and show white underbelly" button - that happens a lot. *Blush* Or it's possible I was so busy hating Byron that I sided with her as an ally against him. Not sure. It was interesting, that's for sure.

For the record, I wanted to kill things when it came out that she was Sheridan's ex-wife, though. How on god's green earth was that necessary? Or even useful to the plot? Or even vaguely interesting? Just no. Would it have been so bad if they'd just been friends? Maybe even friends who'd had a fling in the distant past, if JMS really felt the need to have that thread involved somehow? I was pissed about that.

Let them become friends and more all he had to do was take out the mystical destiny stuff and make it more of a real relationship.

Nail on the head, right there. For god's sake, Delenn pretty much started in on him the instant she stepped out of the coccoon. Umm... what? Now, granted, I always quite enjoyed Sheridan's looks of "what the hell is going on here oh never mind why I am asking oh god she's pretty I'll just go with it!" whenever she was around him early on. But... no! Would it have been so hard to show a relationship developing naturally? And the destiny thing just pissed me off. It made me feel like Delenn had gotten into her head that they had to be married for the prophecy to come true, that she was convincing herself that she had to be in love with him, that he had to be in love with her, and then, in typical Delenn fashion, going out and taking no prisoners and making it happen. Because that's the way she functions - once something is in her head It Will Happen. She's a force of nature that way. But it angered me and made me sad and resentful of the whole thing to think of it in those terms. And it made me cling all the harder to Lennier, who, stupid boy that he was, genuinely loved her despite the prophetic destiny stuff.

...I'm a fan of "love against the tides of fate!" apparently. Ahem. I'll go be emo and wilty-tilty romantic somewhere else. :P

Argh, the end of the Shadow War. Good idea, carried out very very poorly. Argh. You don't build something up for three and a half years just to end it suddenly in one episode by basically having the baddies go "oh, nevermind, we're leaving." Bad writer! *Smacks on the nose with a newspaper*

I ♥ sci fi that has real-world issues. And don't worry about writing essays at me, that's why I love doing this - I love getting people talking!

[oszras.livejournal.com]

Yeah he left stage acting to get on with B5, apparently he went back to it after the first season. I believe he didn't like doing tv and left for that very reason.

I love their voices, all three of them could recite the alphabet all day and I wouldn't get tired of it. And the first language thing? I can't even get my first language down I have no idea how Mira did it. Actually my mother and I were talking about this the other day and this goes toward the charisma thing you were talking about earlier. Back in the 30's through the 60's movie stars of that time had to have talent. Now I don't mean to say that the stars we have today are talent-less but these people had to look beautiful (espeically the women), they had to have talent enough to sing, dance and act. Back then there were so many wanna-be actors, singers and dancers who would travel around in a troupe trying to find a big break, they had to work really hard to even stay in the troupe or whatever gig they had. People like Ginger Rodgers, Debbie Renyolds, Maureen O'Hara, Kathrine Hepburn, Cary Grant, Frank Sinatra etc. Their big break depended on them being able to have the skill and talent to get them where they wanted to go, but also I noticed they had to have a presence or charisma as well. I don't think you can write charisma really, it all depends on the actor. You can decide that your character will have charisma but it really depends on how well the actor can act. For me, Mira, Peter, and Andreas came from that old school of where the actors had to bring the skills and talents and not rely on the script or the technology to make it all better (I mean special effects etc.). I think that is why those three were so good.

Lochely: I hated the married/divorced storyline. I would have preferred that, if she had to be connected to Sheridan in some way, for it to have been through Anna or let Lochely just be someone he worked with. As it was...well it just made me want to wash my mouth out.

Sheridan/Delenn: Exactly. It felt forced and the only thing that saved it for me were the little cute scenes where I could see their personalities come out and mesh well. That and the fact that I was able to stare at Delenn's headcrest more. XD

Oh, the Shadow War ending was just such a let down, like you said good idea - no emotional impact whatsoever. Bleh.

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

Huh, go figure. My respect for him just grew by several points. Theater's a hard business, and most people tend to leave it for the greater money-making possibility of TV, if they're able. Good on him for sticking with what he likes, in that case.

Exactly so. A lot of actors today seem to really just be pretty faces who last for the moment and haven't got a lot of intelligence or talent to back it up. Which isn't to say that there aren't plenty of what I'd call real actors around, it just seems that they're not necessarily the ones we see the most of in movies. There are plenty among the big names... I consider Johnny Depp a truly brilliant actor, Dame Judi Dench, Cate Blanchett, and a bunch of other names I'm not thinking of right now. But it's sad how people with comparatively little talent often seem to get the spotlight simply because they're young, pretty, and popular-for-the-moment.

They were very cute in some of the little scenes. I think I most loved the bits that played with her not having a strong grasp on colloquial English. They were kind of silly, but she really shone in some of those early interactions between them. I think one of them was the first time we really saw Delenn smile - that truly brilliant smile that she has, the one that never seemed to come out before her transformation. (This, I suppose, is why I lot of people get the idea that Minbari don't have emotions like Humans do. I prefer to think that it's just that Delenn was very serious, very focused on the future and making things happen, before her transformation... and after, she began to relax and realize that things were falling into place as she wanted them to. I don't buy for a minute that Minbari don't have strong emotions - Delenn was willing to order genocide, she was so enraged over Dukhat's death, for crying out loud. That's passion. But I have a feeling we've had this discussion before, so I'll shut up. XD)

[oszras.livejournal.com]

Yeah it suprised me when I read that, I'm glad he went back to something he liked. It must be hard for theatre trained actors to get used to the tv sets, schedules etc. Probably vice versa for tv and movie actors to go to the stage.

Oh, yes I think Jonny Depp, Dench and many others are truly talented actors. I've noticed that while they go on to make many great movies they aren't as rewarded it for it. Or at least much as I would want them too.
You know I was thinking about Brad Pitt the other day, now before I saw Troy or Fight Club I would have said Pitt was a talentless hack. But I've truly enjoyed him in the more unorthodox roles he played. I truly hate it when they compare a current actor with a great actor of the past. Like comparing Jennifer Love Hewitt to Audrey Hepburn, um no.

Yes, we have disscussed that before. XD I do agree that Minbari are a passionate as humans, probably even more so than us. I see the Minbari as the Japanese or Asian culture, they are a reserved people but not unfeeling.

...I'll stop now. XD But we agree.

[aris-tgd.livejournal.com]

I still count myself as perplexed that I liked her. I had so much bad baggage against the actress, to start out with, that I literally sat down ready to hate Lochley... and then got distracted along the way and ended up liking her almost immediately.

I didn't like Lochley the first time I watched S5, really, really tried liking her the second time and failed, and started liking her again after watching River of Souls, where she FINALLY gets to do something besides be second-best to Sheridan and Ivanova. I also liked her in Crusade, more than in B5 proper.

I think what bothered me the most with Lochley is that in No Compromises, JMS is using a lot of little hints that she's supposed to be The Competent One (she always carries a clipboard, she's read all the reports, she's on top of things, she double-ambushes the teeps), but all of those things don't actually add up to any REAL competence in the episode. The only reason things fall out well for Our Heroes is because JMS made them happen that way. The good guys screwed up an awful lot. *sigh* I really dislike it when people are made competent-by-fiat rather than competent-by-action. It's much more satisfying to watch characters actually do smart things than to have everyone/the semiotic coding of the show/the author say "Look! They're smart and good at their job!"

... Lochley finally got to be just good at her job in River of Souls, so win there.

[beam-oflight.livejournal.com]

I really liked Sinclair and his whole story arc, but he had the worst lines, going back and watching season 1 really makes you cringe. The one line that really sticks out in my mind is: 'I'm going to go straight to it's personality matrix, I'm gonna make it mad!' and he says it with this really crazy look on his face, I can't watch the scene without cracking up.

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

His arc is fascinating, but I had too many moments where I couldn't stop laughing long enough to take him seriously, unfortunately. That line you mention... wow. Oh, bad writing. Poor guy just couldn't escape it.

[beam-oflight.livejournal.com]

Yeah he was pretty bad, but his character was built up for a whole season and then suddenly gone, and the guy who replaced him was some 'cheesy idot who couldn't stop smiling'I think were my thoughts when i started watching the second season. Of course Sheridan turned out to be a great character and Babylon 5 would be completely different with out him, would it even be Babylon 5? It's Babylon 5 but not as we know it :) But I still have this lingering loyalty to Sinclair because he was the first captain when every thing started.

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

Yeah... poor Sinclair. One minute he's in charge of everything, everything's gearing up, and then boom - gone. And I get what you mean about Sheridan. I'd made jokes through the first season about Sinclair being a big dumb puppy, but then Sheridan showed up and I kind of went "...Oh. Never mind. This guy is the puppy." He was just so... enthusiastic about everything. Space station! Fruit!! Delenn!!! I'm gonna give a speech!

Disliking him would have been like kicking a big, happy golden retriever who was bounding around at my feet with a ball. I just couldn't. I tried, believe me... but I couldn't.

[beam-oflight.livejournal.com]

He comes along and he's like omg real showers, omg orange juice, really big shining grin, well hello there I'm the earthforce poster boy/puppy.

Oh how things changed, all grown up and able to wage war all on his own!

But yeah he's great, all the hate kinda gets washed out of your system after a couple of episodes - though his sister was annoying.

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

I know! It really is fun to watch him grow up over the course of the series - I'd put him on the list with Vir, Lennier, Londo, and G'Kar for characters who had the most growth between the first and last times they appeared. Have to admit, I was kind of sad to see Overly-Enthusiastic!Sheridan fall by the wayside as he grew up.

Though secretly I think he'd never have been able to run the war or the alliance without Delenn pulling the strings behind him. He may have thought he was in charge... but that's part of her genius as a leader. She leads people to exactly the decisions she wants them to make, and leaves them convinced that it was their idea all along. ;)

Yeah, definitely. I wanted to strangle him a few times, but he's just so endearing. And yes. Oh god the sister. I pretend she doesn't exist. I think JMS did, too, after that one episode...

[beam-oflight.livejournal.com]

I loved how G'kar developed through out the series, looking at him in season 1 and then in season 5 he's so different. In season one i didn't like him that much, he was the nasty alien with dubious morals and would do anything for centauri blood, but to see his character grow over the series and come out changed, he is now one of may favourite characters even evilly season 1 G'kar - not that I don't love them all of course.

Behind every great man is a great woman :) He would have completely screwed up the war/s without Delenn and the others.

Do you mind if I friend you?

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

I loved G'Kar straight from day one, but that may've been because I tend to like morally ambiguous characters... and because he was the favorite of most of my friends who introduced me to the show. I did definitely come to respect him a lot more as the series went on, though. He grew up so much!

Oh yes. XD

Not in the slightest!

[wakwaha.livejournal.com]

Kind of been out of the loop for awhile, so this comment is a bit late, but...

The whole telling instead of showing thing really just gets out of control in A View from the Gallery. That episode... ugh. One definitely gets the sensation that the characters have suddenly become a medium for the author, parroting things to make sure that we like who we're supposed to like. I was never a huge fan of Sheridan/Delenn, mostly because (as someone else mentioned above, I think) it seems like Delenn goes along with the whole relationship partly because she feels that it's destined. The kind of comments like those in A View from the Gallery make me stubbornly dig in my heels and like them even less. Somehow, I still do like Lochley, despite all that praise from Bo and Mack, though (thanks, Neil Gaiman! ^_^).

Thankfully, though, the characterizations and the story arc are more than enough to overcome my irritation at the occasional whack on the head from jms. I think that the faults and strengths of the series may be two sides of the same coin. Because so much of the show comes from one mind, it's possible for a great, consistent story arc to be maintained, with subtle foreshadowing and clues put out along the way. I think this would have been a lot harder with multiple writers. Similarly, one person writing nearly all of the scripts does make the characterization remarkably consistent. It's not that these things can't be done by other shows, but it just seems like it's probably easier with only one person doing much of the writing.

It also seems like having one person write the whole show can lead to this sort of whack-you-over-the-head-with-opinions problem. I am not sure, but having multiple writers might help to screen out a lot of the "character as author's avatar" problems. At the very least, less scripts from that one person would probably restrict the number of incidents.

Anyhow, just my thoughts. I really like your essay, though; lots of good points about a series that I love, but that, like anything, does have some flaws.