explaining (away) female geeks

[rivendellrose]

First off, I should probably say that anybody here who isn't reading Skepchick.org ought to check it out - it's a group-blog by a bunch of female skeptics, as the name implies, but it's also full of fun stuff, sarcasm, good science, and fabulous links. Fabulous links, for instance, like this one - an article about how the media "explains away" female geeks, continuing the false dichotomy of technology as a solely male realm.

Explaining (Away) Women Geeks.

Very much worth a look, especially for those of us in the tech industry.

* * *

That said, it's beautiful and sunny here in Seattle, I'm wearing my very-favorite butt-kicking boots, so I passed up my bus transfer this morning in favor of a twenty-minute (about 1 mile) walk the rest of the way to the office. I love when I can do that.

Comments

[lovelies.livejournal.com]

That's an awesome site, I can't believe I'd never stumbled into it!

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

I only just found them in the last month, after link-hopping from The Skeptic's Guide to the Universe (http://www.theskepticsguide.org/), but I'm totally in love. One of the women, Rebecca, is a regular on "The Skeptic's Guide," as well, and she's hilarious. Definitely worth a listen.

[seachanges.livejournal.com]

Thank you so much for the links! I just reposted them in my LJ. :)

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

Yay! I'm glad you liked them.

[caeline.livejournal.com]

As an extremely "girly girl" in the tech field: thank you for that link. I love the check list at the bottom.

Also, your post make me miss Seattle so much. I can't wait for summer days that I can actually survive without heat stroke and public transport. yay! :)

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

Tell me about it. ;) I'm sitting here wearing a skirt and white nylons and makeup (which I wear every day), looking at a Doctor Who desktop on my computer and a picture of my cat hanging above me... in my office at a web-company, having just finished updating somebody's website. But don't forget, girls can't really be into computers, technology, or science fiction, and if they are they aren't really feminine girls.

The check-list is awesome, and so sadly accurate to articles about women in any kind of position of power or fields that are assumed to be male-centric.

Seriously? That's awesome, I hardly ever meet people on-line who've been to Seattle (except in local groups, I mean). I ♥ living someplace where summer doesn't mean heat stroke. ;)

[caeline.livejournal.com]

Seattle is home! I'll be moving once-and-for-all in July... But I've been living between there and Dallas for the last3-4 years. You don't get anymore insane when it comes to summer than Texas. I'm really ready to enjoy my summers instead of spending them indoors with the windows closed and the air blasting. ;)

As for being feminine, hear hear! People always are incredulous at my interests. 'Wot? You like to build computers and you like fashion in an unhealthy way? Unnatural!'

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

Moving here, I hope, not to Dallas... you're not the only one I know who has appalling things to say about Texas summers. Bleck. I'm such a northwesterner - I start freaking out a bit when the temperature gets above about 90 F. ;)

(And what part of Seattle? We could do coffee or something once you're settled, if you're not too far off from the Greenlake/U-Dist area!)

I know! It's appalling to people or something. I mean, okay, I'm not the sort who builds her own computers from spare parts or whatever or code my own programs, but I can hold my own, and I love the geeky science and sci-fi stuff more than just about anything.

[silly-cleo.livejournal.com]

This was awesome, thank you for linking!

It makes me glad for Whedon's female geeks and also the various female geeks in Who. Neither are perfect but step in right direction. Actually, that's what I'd like from a new companion after Donna. They haven't gone for the intellectual equal in a while. Martha was highly educated but it's not the same. I'd like them to have a go at the Zoe/Romana/Liz Shaw mold.

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

No prob, I'm glad people are enjoying them!

I know what you mean. I'd really love to see Doctor Who get more of the science-oriented intellectual equals to the Doctor, like they used to have. Liz Shaw and Romana are two of my favorite characters exactly because of that, and a similar argument goes for Sarah Jane. I think that on her own, Martha Jones might've been as close as any Human can be to equalling the Doctor in intellect, if she hadn't been so caught up in having a crush on him. I haven't seen anything of Zoe, yet... but you've got me looking forward to her. ;)

[silly-cleo.livejournal.com]

Liz Shaw and Romana are two of my favorites for this two. And yeah, I see what you mean with Sarah Jane. It's not the same thing, but it's just that she matches him and is his opposite whenever he needs it? Which is something I also enjoy about Rose, actually, if that makes sense. Not so much about the geeky, more about bff-ness or something.

But what makes mem bats for Romana and Liz is that they get to do stuff like science-y experiments and be as competent at say, fixing K9, or dude, Horns of Nimon! And it's never an issue.

Do you think so about Martha? I didn't get that vibe off her but I can see where you would. Don't get me wrong, I adore her and her medical Doctor-ness and I got a definite intellectual vibe and 'retains a lot of random info and knows how to apply it well' vibe but that doesn't put her in the skience-y box that Liz and Romana and Zoe all fit. Actually, that's probably the BOX I'd put her in, but less readily. Does that make sense? (Unlikely, it barely makes sense to me. Must think more on this.)

I haven't seen any Zoe yet but I've got the impression she falls into that 'intellectual match for the Doctor' box. I'm looking forward to her for this and her shiny, shiny arse. ;)

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

The difference seems to be that Sarah Jane isn't a scientist, but she is a very intelligent woman (imho), and a journalist, and she thinks about things in a very clear-minded way, full of curiosity, all that sort of thing.

Liz, yes, and even moreso Romana are on a whole different level, in that they're on an equal intellectual level as the Doctor and in the same subjects that he excels at. I pull Romana onto an even higher level because she presumably had the same training and education as the Doctor, while Humans are not on the same technological and theoretical level (and potentially can't be - we don't know if it's possible for a Human to actually be as intelligent as the Doctor or any other Time Lord).

The thing about Martha is (and they didn't bring this out nearly enough in the series, I don't think) she is a scientist, in a practical sense. I don't know how it is in the UK, but I have friends in medical school in America, and they have to take ungodly amounts of biology and other sciences in order to get to that level. Now, medical practice can be very different from lab science, but I still think that qualifies by implication of having a decent science background. ...It's possible that I'm over-interpreting that to some extent, however, purely because of two things: 1. I love Martha, and 2. I love intellectuals.

[silly-cleo.livejournal.com]

*nods* I see what you mean! I was thinking more in terms of relationship to the Doctor, bad feminist me, methinks. Yeah, I'd definitely agree with that. I'd say Rose was intelligent and curious but not in an educated, which I also enjoyed.

I definitely agree with Romana on MOST par because she's a Time Lord, no human could match him up, really. Though Zoe does apparently get a line about how she is cleverer than the Doctor in the sense of having a bigger brain. But then there's more to it than just brains, so while Liz may get Brainiest Human and Zoe may get Brainer Than The Doctor, Romana's his equal in other ways too, partly just because she's a Time Lord, but there's other stuff there too, like the silliness, the sense of responsibility. My batshit OTP, let me show you it. *flails around* Or something. Have I gone off topic again? Basically I'm trying to agree and further your thoughts here.

I don't know enough about how medicine works here, but I still see what you're saying and agree. HOWEVER, I'd say she's not *shown* as having the same degree of interest as Liz and Romana (and from the sound of things, Zoe). We see them doing skience-y things, we didn't get enough of Martha using her skills. You can choose to take that as a failure on the show's part or as how the character's written, ie that she has the skills but maybe not the interest and I honestly don't know which way I swing with that. I'd now love to re-watch with this in mind. Because she's defnitely got the (maybe cliche?) doctor's desire to help people/save lives, she jumps in with her medical knowledge often. And she does have a wonder at how things work. Ok, I really need to re-watch Martha (again, I watched S3 once half over the summer, other half finished at Christmas, again in February and now I want to see it again!) before I can say more on this. But 1. I love Martha too, it hit me out of the blue my second watch-through because my first watch of S3 I didn't click with her and really freaking missed Rose and 2. Ditto ditto ditto.

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

It's hard not to be sometimes, given how Doctor-centric the show is. ;)

That's what I love about Romana and the Doctor - they're really as equal a pairing as we've ever seen on the show (still problematic, since Romana ostensibly plays assistant to the Doctor, but that gets shaken up quite a bit, and I'm pleased to point out that she more often acts like a partner than an assistant. Her cleverness and absolute confidence in herself (balancing the Doctor's absolute confidence in himself, her ability to improvise and do all the tech stuff that she does (one of my favorite Romana moments of all time is her in the laboratory in "City of Death," going back and forth with various bits of equipment, making do with what they've got and figuring things out while the Doctor just natters on)... and her sense of morality, which I think is actually a bit stronger than the Doctor's, in some ways.

I get the sense that the lack of science for Martha maybe comes from two things - for one, she's in a very people-oriented science, not a tech- or lab-oriented one. Her knowledge is practical, not theoretical. The second thing is that there wasn't a lot of scope for her in the span of the series - I have the same problem with poor Harry Sullivan as, again, a medical doctor who gets the shaft in terms of the show by not really having anything to do other than to basically bandage people up and give first aid. I wish there'd been more opportunity for her to really use her skills.

I had the exact opposite reaction in terms of the companion-switch. While I liked Rose, I never especially clicked with her on a personal level. Martha, though... from 2 minutes into "Smith and Jones" I knew I adored her, and that just kept growing over the season and successive re-watching. ♥

[silly-cleo.livejournal.com]

Really really! ;) And I have to admit, sometimes I get a little frustrated with really radically feminist readings of the show because in some ways because of the nature of the companion role it isn't always going to be the most pro-feminist of shows. I think it does awesome things despite this but there's still the issue with the role of the companion.

Yes yes yes, to all of this! On her being his assistant, I'm really ok with that because when she first comes to him she just doesn't have the experience, that's the only way she isn't his equal which she visibly gains over time. So by the time she leaves, they ARE equals and it's why she does have to leave, because I'm not sure that's something Four can deal with. Later on Eight's fine with it but he's literally a different person and it's been a long time.

I definitely agree on it being hard what to do with medical doctors. I think with both Harry and Martha if they'd used the MD as an excuse for heaps of other science knowledge it'd have smacked of unrealism. Thinking Scully and her MD that meant she could do anything in a lab ever. But yeah, I'd have liked more opportunity for her to use her skills. We definitely got to see a lot of her quick thinking and applying of knowledge (am thinking Lazarus Experiment and Shakespeare Code especially but heaps of others, am sure). But then, I'm thinking about it, can you think of specific stuff you'd have them do for this?

Ah, fair enough. Rose was very much my First Companion the way Nine was my First Doctor (Caps Lock *nod*) and I had a real struggle with adjusting to both Ten and Martha. In fact, I recall when I first was watching S1 I honestly didn't think I'd keep watching once he regenerated and was eventually proved wrong and I honestly didn't think I'd keep watching after she left and was proved...spectacularly wrong. I just didn't understand how one could take the change and now I can't imagine not!