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rivendellroseIt's lunch-time, the internet is (oddly) quiet, and I'm behind on my B5 episode reviews. Sounds like a good combination to take advantage of.
Eyes
I'm torn on this episode. On the one hand, it always makes me happy to see Jeffrey Combs, particularly getting to play such a smarmy but, in the end, lovable little twerp as Grey. Too often his inherent creepiness seems to saddle Combs playing villains, and he's absolutely adorable as a somewhat unwilling accomplice who finally gets the guts to turn hero. Also, I adore his hapless little crush on Ivanova. ♥ Sort of a pre-emptive reminder of Marcus, who is another of my favorite characters.
And then of course there's the B-plot with Lennier and Garibaldi fixing up the old Kawasaki, for which I have very fond feelings. Unfortunately, those feelings now come with a sense of impending dread when Lennier gets all fascinated by the "sexual prowess" bit of symbolism associated with motorcycles. Why hello there, memories of Season 5. Go away, please.
And then![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
ninjascript, who knows nothing of what will come, kind of blinked at that line and remarked "That's... not where I would have expected him to go with that." The words "You have no idea" nearly leaped out of my mouth, but I managed to shove them behind a vague remark about Lennier having something of the mental state of a teenager. I stand by that remark. There's just no other way to make sense of his obsession in this episode and all that comes after, IMHO. And I do still love how hurt and horrified he looks when he realizes that he's broken Garibaldi's toy exactly by making it work. Poor thing - I still think he might not quite understand what went wrong there, but he looked like a kicked puppy nonetheless.
....Anyway. I swore to myself I'd be less focused on Lennier this time around. So.
Ben Zayn's actor drives me up the wall, particularly in comparison to Combs. I have a feeling they were trying to find someone who could be so damnably melodramatic that he'd be on the same level as Michael O'Hare, and they did manage that, but it also makes their scenes together ever so slightly agonizing for me. And, speaking of agonizing, that dream sequence of Ivanova's? Embarrassing. Whoever did that should be ashamed of themself.
Legacies
Another episode that I love... in parts. The girl who plays the telepath is faintly painful to watch, and I dislike all the back and forth and immaturity with Susan and Talia, but... whatever. I'm too busy adoring Neroon and Delenn and all her machinations to care, frankly. And Na'toth, who is still frankly awesome.
I'm not sure, but I think this is the only time we hear a high-ranking religious caste Minbari referred to as a "high priest." Obviously there are quite a few other jobs open to religious caste members, it just makes me faintly curious to notice it - what else do the religious caste do, other than bickering and struggling for power with the Warriors?
As a side note, I cringed mightily when Lennier explained to Sinclair that there are two castes of Minbari, warrior and religious. I wonder if JMS had not yet decided on the existence of the Worker class, or if he'd planned all along for Delenn and Lennier to lie about that for the first season? I could have sworn it's said later on that Minbari don't lie except to save a life or protect the honor of another (or something like that), and if that's true I find it terribly interesting that they would consider it a matter of honor (presumably of their whole species) not to let outsiders know about the worker class. Shame is a powerful thing, and it makes sense that they (particularly the religious caste) would decide that other species wouldn't understand, but... dude, don't we have ambassadors living on Minbar or something at this point? Or is Sinclair actually the first Human to live among them who isn't a Ranger?
All that aside, I really do adore how faintly horrible Delenn is in this episode. Not only is she willing to pretty much start another war to make a point about Branmer, but this is a clear indicator to me that she has not learned anything from what happened with Dukhat. She was so enraged by Dukhat's death that she took her whole species with her in a genocidal rage. She then discovers that Sinclair has Valen's soul (oops!), and so immediately calls off the war. You would think that would make her think twice the next time she wants to start a war because she's pissed off about the death of a friend (hell - not even his death is what's at issue here, just the manner in which his death is being respected). Furthermore, her actions go at cross-purposes to what she claims to be feeling. She says she's upset because the warriors are using Branmer's body to beat the war drums, so to speak, but disappearing his body doesn't mediate that - it risks causing a whole other war! And then, when she's caught, it looks like she's taking responsibility for her actions, but as soon as she's alone she just pulls rank on Neroon and orders him to go along with what she's said or she'll humiliate and destroy his clan, and then rubs her power and his potential shame in his face by adding that he will obey "just as you obeyed the order to end the war," and insisting that he make a private apology to Sinclair. The audacity of that woman. I just adore her. ♥
And of course here we get the beginning of the long-term theme that Minbari do a lot of crazy things in devoted service of their mentors. Neroon apparently goes a bit nuts over Branmer's death here, and later we find out that was why Delenn started the war with the Humans, and... then of course, there's Lennier. I think it's pretty safe for me to here reiterate my former assertion that Minbari as a species have really close (and faintly co-dependent) relationships with their mentors. The sheer love that we see between Draal and Delenn in the next episode is one side of that relationship, sure, but the other side is genocide, war-mongering, refusing to follow the mentor's wishes because one feels his death should be more greatly honored, bearing false witness to pursue the wishes of the mentor, and attempted murder because of jealousy. ...Okay, we only get one example of that last one, but it fits the pattern. :P
On the other hand, Delenn goes equally psycho over Branmer and Mayan, so it's probably just as true to say that Minbari are just a species given to quick and extreme fits of passion.
ninjascript took the "chrysalis" and brewed up a theory that Delenn is secretly breeding an army of space warrior butterflies. I had to admit that I could easily believe it of her.
A Voice in the Wilderness, parts 1 and 2
Hey, look, it's Draal, the first of Delenn's billion and one beloved former teachers. I swear to god, she must have trained with the whole religious caste at some point or other, and seems to know everyone on her planet. I know that's what diplomats are kind of supposed to be like, but there's a line between realistic networking and just plain knowing everyone of your species. It's kind of amusing to me.
And Draal is planning to go to the sea. One has to wonder if Sinclair was a closeted Tolkien fan. Disregarding that little issue, I do enjoy this conversation of theirs, largely because it gives so many tantalizing little hints about Minbari culture, which is something of an obsession of mine. "Going to the sea" appears to be at least somewhat euphemistic (certainly Draal seems to give no indication of going to the actual sea on Minbar, but rather to take it as leaving the world behind, never to return), which makes me wonder whether at one point it would have been a literal action. Was there perhaps a time in Minbari history (long before Valen, we might assume) when the clans were nomadic, and having an old person along might have slowed the group down? It would fit with the communal ethic of Minbari society, if that were the case, for there to be an accepted, semi-ritualistic practice of those elders departing the clan, perhaps to wander alone, or perhaps to just wait for death. There's some anthropological precedent for practice like this, and to me it seems to resonate well with the rest of what we see in Minbari culture.
...Right, parts of this episode that aren't just me theorizing about Minbari culture.
I like Dr. Tasaki and wish he'd been around more - he reminds me a little of a geology professor I used to work with in my old job at the university. Good sense of humor, fun guy to be around, terribly excited about his work.
Susan finally gets her "Ivanova is god. Ivanova out. ...Sorry, god" moment. ♥ I madeninjascript rewind this bit as he made the (to me inexplicable) decision to futz with the audio during this speech, and I simply cannot abide the thought of part of it getting blipped by switching audio settings. He did not seem quite as impressed as I was by it, but I suppose we cannot all be devotees of the great Ivanova.
And oh, look, it's the beginning of the plotline with Lise. I have never liked Lise, I must say. This time it's okay because she's not on screen a whole lot and the story is really more about Garibaldi, but... meh. It makes me think of all the tedious episodes about her in the future, and for that I am very sorry.
Londo certainly gets to be a glowing character in this episode - it's like JMS was pulling out all the stops to make sure we liked him before he began his inevitable, painful downfall. I love his conversation with Garibaldi in the bar ("whatever it is, it cannot possibly be that bad") and that he sticks Garibaldi with the bill (even when he's being good, Londo's still such an adorable little bastard), and I adore his relationship with Delenn in this episode. It's clear that he likes her very much, and that she's... fond of him, while at the same time totally not trusting him farther than she canmanipulate him be sure of his motives. Londo the fighter pilot... goodness, that's a fun mental image, and it's charming how excited he is to revisit his glory days. And of course, the hokey-pokey. He's so appalled, it just makes me laugh.
Last thing, I swear - Londo's little speech about the Narn and their relationship with the Centauri is absolutely wonderful.ninjascript even commented on how poetic it is (although once he got into the "equal and opposite reaction" that pinged the poor boy's love of physics and he switched to "that's not quite right" mode while I shushed him and told him it was meant to be poetry, not actual physics. It's a metaphor. And it's a lovely one, IMHO, and very true of how interactions between people work. If we are hated, we hate in return.
Eyes
I'm torn on this episode. On the one hand, it always makes me happy to see Jeffrey Combs, particularly getting to play such a smarmy but, in the end, lovable little twerp as Grey. Too often his inherent creepiness seems to saddle Combs playing villains, and he's absolutely adorable as a somewhat unwilling accomplice who finally gets the guts to turn hero. Also, I adore his hapless little crush on Ivanova. ♥ Sort of a pre-emptive reminder of Marcus, who is another of my favorite characters.
And then of course there's the B-plot with Lennier and Garibaldi fixing up the old Kawasaki, for which I have very fond feelings. Unfortunately, those feelings now come with a sense of impending dread when Lennier gets all fascinated by the "sexual prowess" bit of symbolism associated with motorcycles. Why hello there, memories of Season 5. Go away, please.
And then
ninjascript, who knows nothing of what will come, kind of blinked at that line and remarked "That's... not where I would have expected him to go with that." The words "You have no idea" nearly leaped out of my mouth, but I managed to shove them behind a vague remark about Lennier having something of the mental state of a teenager. I stand by that remark. There's just no other way to make sense of his obsession in this episode and all that comes after, IMHO. And I do still love how hurt and horrified he looks when he realizes that he's broken Garibaldi's toy exactly by making it work. Poor thing - I still think he might not quite understand what went wrong there, but he looked like a kicked puppy nonetheless.....Anyway. I swore to myself I'd be less focused on Lennier this time around. So.
Ben Zayn's actor drives me up the wall, particularly in comparison to Combs. I have a feeling they were trying to find someone who could be so damnably melodramatic that he'd be on the same level as Michael O'Hare, and they did manage that, but it also makes their scenes together ever so slightly agonizing for me. And, speaking of agonizing, that dream sequence of Ivanova's? Embarrassing. Whoever did that should be ashamed of themself.
Legacies
Another episode that I love... in parts. The girl who plays the telepath is faintly painful to watch, and I dislike all the back and forth and immaturity with Susan and Talia, but... whatever. I'm too busy adoring Neroon and Delenn and all her machinations to care, frankly. And Na'toth, who is still frankly awesome.
I'm not sure, but I think this is the only time we hear a high-ranking religious caste Minbari referred to as a "high priest." Obviously there are quite a few other jobs open to religious caste members, it just makes me faintly curious to notice it - what else do the religious caste do, other than bickering and struggling for power with the Warriors?
As a side note, I cringed mightily when Lennier explained to Sinclair that there are two castes of Minbari, warrior and religious. I wonder if JMS had not yet decided on the existence of the Worker class, or if he'd planned all along for Delenn and Lennier to lie about that for the first season? I could have sworn it's said later on that Minbari don't lie except to save a life or protect the honor of another (or something like that), and if that's true I find it terribly interesting that they would consider it a matter of honor (presumably of their whole species) not to let outsiders know about the worker class. Shame is a powerful thing, and it makes sense that they (particularly the religious caste) would decide that other species wouldn't understand, but... dude, don't we have ambassadors living on Minbar or something at this point? Or is Sinclair actually the first Human to live among them who isn't a Ranger?
All that aside, I really do adore how faintly horrible Delenn is in this episode. Not only is she willing to pretty much start another war to make a point about Branmer, but this is a clear indicator to me that she has not learned anything from what happened with Dukhat. She was so enraged by Dukhat's death that she took her whole species with her in a genocidal rage. She then discovers that Sinclair has Valen's soul (oops!), and so immediately calls off the war. You would think that would make her think twice the next time she wants to start a war because she's pissed off about the death of a friend (hell - not even his death is what's at issue here, just the manner in which his death is being respected). Furthermore, her actions go at cross-purposes to what she claims to be feeling. She says she's upset because the warriors are using Branmer's body to beat the war drums, so to speak, but disappearing his body doesn't mediate that - it risks causing a whole other war! And then, when she's caught, it looks like she's taking responsibility for her actions, but as soon as she's alone she just pulls rank on Neroon and orders him to go along with what she's said or she'll humiliate and destroy his clan, and then rubs her power and his potential shame in his face by adding that he will obey "just as you obeyed the order to end the war," and insisting that he make a private apology to Sinclair. The audacity of that woman. I just adore her. ♥
And of course here we get the beginning of the long-term theme that Minbari do a lot of crazy things in devoted service of their mentors. Neroon apparently goes a bit nuts over Branmer's death here, and later we find out that was why Delenn started the war with the Humans, and... then of course, there's Lennier. I think it's pretty safe for me to here reiterate my former assertion that Minbari as a species have really close (and faintly co-dependent) relationships with their mentors. The sheer love that we see between Draal and Delenn in the next episode is one side of that relationship, sure, but the other side is genocide, war-mongering, refusing to follow the mentor's wishes because one feels his death should be more greatly honored, bearing false witness to pursue the wishes of the mentor, and attempted murder because of jealousy. ...Okay, we only get one example of that last one, but it fits the pattern. :P
On the other hand, Delenn goes equally psycho over Branmer and Mayan, so it's probably just as true to say that Minbari are just a species given to quick and extreme fits of passion.
ninjascript took the "chrysalis" and brewed up a theory that Delenn is secretly breeding an army of space warrior butterflies. I had to admit that I could easily believe it of her. A Voice in the Wilderness, parts 1 and 2
Hey, look, it's Draal, the first of Delenn's billion and one beloved former teachers. I swear to god, she must have trained with the whole religious caste at some point or other, and seems to know everyone on her planet. I know that's what diplomats are kind of supposed to be like, but there's a line between realistic networking and just plain knowing everyone of your species. It's kind of amusing to me.
And Draal is planning to go to the sea. One has to wonder if Sinclair was a closeted Tolkien fan. Disregarding that little issue, I do enjoy this conversation of theirs, largely because it gives so many tantalizing little hints about Minbari culture, which is something of an obsession of mine. "Going to the sea" appears to be at least somewhat euphemistic (certainly Draal seems to give no indication of going to the actual sea on Minbar, but rather to take it as leaving the world behind, never to return), which makes me wonder whether at one point it would have been a literal action. Was there perhaps a time in Minbari history (long before Valen, we might assume) when the clans were nomadic, and having an old person along might have slowed the group down? It would fit with the communal ethic of Minbari society, if that were the case, for there to be an accepted, semi-ritualistic practice of those elders departing the clan, perhaps to wander alone, or perhaps to just wait for death. There's some anthropological precedent for practice like this, and to me it seems to resonate well with the rest of what we see in Minbari culture.
...Right, parts of this episode that aren't just me theorizing about Minbari culture.
I like Dr. Tasaki and wish he'd been around more - he reminds me a little of a geology professor I used to work with in my old job at the university. Good sense of humor, fun guy to be around, terribly excited about his work.
Susan finally gets her "Ivanova is god. Ivanova out. ...Sorry, god" moment. ♥ I made
ninjascript rewind this bit as he made the (to me inexplicable) decision to futz with the audio during this speech, and I simply cannot abide the thought of part of it getting blipped by switching audio settings. He did not seem quite as impressed as I was by it, but I suppose we cannot all be devotees of the great Ivanova. And oh, look, it's the beginning of the plotline with Lise. I have never liked Lise, I must say. This time it's okay because she's not on screen a whole lot and the story is really more about Garibaldi, but... meh. It makes me think of all the tedious episodes about her in the future, and for that I am very sorry.
Londo certainly gets to be a glowing character in this episode - it's like JMS was pulling out all the stops to make sure we liked him before he began his inevitable, painful downfall. I love his conversation with Garibaldi in the bar ("whatever it is, it cannot possibly be that bad") and that he sticks Garibaldi with the bill (even when he's being good, Londo's still such an adorable little bastard), and I adore his relationship with Delenn in this episode. It's clear that he likes her very much, and that she's... fond of him, while at the same time totally not trusting him farther than she can
Last thing, I swear - Londo's little speech about the Narn and their relationship with the Centauri is absolutely wonderful.
ninjascript even commented on how poetic it is (although once he got into the "equal and opposite reaction" that pinged the poor boy's love of physics and he switched to "that's not quite right" mode while I shushed him and told him it was meant to be poetry, not actual physics. It's a metaphor. And it's a lovely one, IMHO, and very true of how interactions between people work. If we are hated, we hate in return.
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Possible spoilers in comment, I dunno
Date: 2010-06-18 10:11 pm (UTC)As a side note, I cringed mightily when Lennier explained to Sinclair that there are two castes of Minbari, warrior and religious.
With the exception of some minor references later on, the worker caste is almost never mentioned by any of the Minbari--they're almost never shown on-screen (much like ideal servants, whose mark of quality is how invisible they are), and they play no visible part in any of the great epic moments. And actually, this does get addressed towards the end of the fourth season.
One has to wonder if Sinclair was a closeted Tolkien fan.
Sinclair or JMS? JMS was questioned several times about how much he was influenced by Tolkien in creating B5, and he pointed out--very validly, IMO--that a lot of the symbols and tropes and metaphors that Tolkien used were lifted straight out of much older myths and legends, and he (JMS) always claimed that he was influenced by the original source material. Might be true. More likely, he just got tired of his masterwork being compared to LOTR.
And of course, the hokey-pokey.
Londo trying to understand the hokey-pokey, AND Delenn and Draal's reaction, will never stop being funny. It's a perpetual motion machine of uncontrollable giggle fits. *gigglesnort*
Re: Possible spoilers in comment, I dunno
Date: 2010-06-18 10:14 pm (UTC)I like your theory about this being a newer version of an ancient custom. Isn't there an old Arctic tradition of the elderly wandering off to die on ice floes? Or is that white people propaganda?
Re: Possible spoilers in comment, I dunno
Date: 2010-06-18 10:26 pm (UTC)I thought of that old hat about Inuit culture, too, but I can't think if I've ever run into it in anything actually reliable. It does have the sound of something that might be one of those nasty propaganda bits, doesn't it?
Re: Possible spoilers in comment, I dunno
Date: 2010-06-18 10:22 pm (UTC)And actually, this does get addressed towards the end of the fourth season.
You're thinking of the bit when Delenn gives control of the Grey Council over to them? That's always what I think of with them... it's just interesting to me how far the Minbari will go early on to hide them from outsiders.
The LotR thing - I specifically meant Sinclair in that case, because to me the question of whether JMS was influenced by Tolkien (and refuses to admit it) is a non-issue. He obviously is. I think it's petty and silly of him to refuse to admit it, but I find it inconceivable that he wouldn't be drawing from LotR (unconsciously or otherwise), considering the sheer number of links that can be made. And while he is, of course, correct about Tolkien drawing a lot from preceding myth and legend, most of the things that JMS refers to that come from Tolkien are not, in fact, drawn from earlier myth. Most of his references are names - Lorien, Z'ha'dum, etc.
Don't misunderstand me - I have absolutely no complaints about him referring to or borrowing from Tolkien. I just dislike that he refuses to admit it - that's just crass, to my mind, not to mention condescending to the parts of his audience who get it. None of his references go to the point of "stealing," in my mind - they're just nice homages, and I heartily approve of that. I just think he lacks grace when it comes to responding to people calling him on it (which, really - like there's any writer anywhere who doesn't quietly refer to or borrow little bits from things they've read! It's nothing to be ashamed of!).
...Got distracted, there. My point in remarking about Sinclair was to think how amusing it would be if, in-canon, it was a reference. I know if I were cast back in time and ended up being a religious leader, the resulting religion would have a lot of little references and similarities to the Silmarillion and Lord of the Rings...
I like it better if it's a cultural thing that precedes Sinclair, though. I'm still a little iffy about the whole Human messiah plotline here. :P
It's a perpetual motion machine of uncontrollable giggle fits. *gigglesnort*
It really, really is. ♥
Re: Possible spoilers in comment, I dunno
Date: 2010-06-22 07:07 pm (UTC)He was indeed an Andorian! ♥ He became the "first" Andorian to make contact with humans. His character of Shran is suspicious, devious, loyal, cunning, and honorable. And at times, snortingly funny.
You're thinking of the bit when Delenn gives control of the Grey Council over to them?
Yup, that's the scene, because it really is the only time they're mentioned.
I also think that the Minbari caste structure was influenced greatly by the Medieval English social structure of "those who work, those who pray, and those who fight," mainly because those who prayed and those who fought didn't usually give a damn about those who worked.
I, too, have to take issue with authors refusing to acknowledge their source material or their inspirations. It's unkind to those who came before and dishonest to those who will come after. (Seriously, don't tell aspiring writers that writing "just happens." No, you have to work your butt off to produce something good.)
Sinclair knowing Tolkien and modeling Minbari religion on it? Well, it's better than him having been a Star Wars fan...
And the whole idea of humans as the be-all and end-all in B5 has always irked me. C'mon, Joe, we're not that awesome.
Re: Possible spoilers in comment, I dunno
Date: 2010-06-22 09:10 pm (UTC)I also think that the Minbari caste structure was influenced greatly by the Medieval English social structure of "those who work, those who pray, and those who fight," mainly because those who prayed and those who fought didn't usually give a damn about those who worked.
Very true, the analogy is almost perfect. It's funny to think how comfortable the Minbari would be with that period of our history - I can see them running across it in research and shaking their heads in dismay at how we had the right idea so long ago, but then abandoned it for a silly mercantile system. ;)
(Seriously, don't tell aspiring writers that writing "just happens." No, you have to work your butt off to produce something good.)
THIS.
Well, it's better than him having been a Star Wars fan...
Yeah. For all my love of sci-fi, I never quite... 'bonded' with Star Wars, somehow. Not sure why. Just one of those things, I guess. (And the recent set of movies certainly didn't help.)
Re: Possible spoilers in comment, I dunno
Date: 2010-06-22 10:54 pm (UTC)I can see them running across it in research and shaking their heads in dismay at how we had the right idea so long ago, but then abandoned it for a silly mercantile system. ;)
*snicker* Oh, what a lovely thought! And then at the very end of the series, Earth descends into Canticle for Leibowitz mode and the Rangers are all masquerading as monks, which just completes the analogy.
For all my love of sci-fi, I never quite... 'bonded' with Star Wars, somehow.
True dat. Lucas is another of those writers who just won't own up to the sheer amount of thought (or lack of thought) he put into his world-building. The story of the original trilogy was such a work-in-progress that (as many people now know) Luke and Leia were not originally intended to be siblings, among other plot contrivances. But GL likes to make out that this was set in stone from the beginning.
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Date: 2010-06-18 10:46 pm (UTC)There are parts of the episode that don't involve Neroon and Delenn? Huh, who knew? I love how just plain wrong Delenn gets to be sometimes.
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Date: 2010-06-18 10:51 pm (UTC)I love how just plain wrong Delenn gets to be sometimes.
That really is one of my favorite things about this show. Especially later on in the series, the feeling is often "oh, Delenn is so perfect and feminine and beautiful and good and BLAH BLAH BLAH," and I always adore when those reminders that yes, and she's still arrogant, manipulative, scary as all hell, and downright wrong sometimes.
It's all the "scary and wrong" moments that make her one of my favorite characters ever. ♥
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Date: 2010-06-19 04:22 am (UTC)I love love love all your theories of Minbari culture. I would like to make them my personal canon, in fact, because they make such very good sense. (And also because I spend way too much time worrying about Centauri culture, so it's awesome to see other picking up the slack.)
Londo certainly gets to be a glowing character in this episode - it's like JMS was pulling out all the stops to make sure we liked him before he began his inevitable, painful downfall.
That is because JMS is cruel and unusual, and also Londo's whole arc is brilliant and makes me cry a lot.
PS I AM VERY EXCITED TO GET TO "IVANOVA IS GOD" SO SOON. :D
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Date: 2010-06-19 05:18 am (UTC)Yay! I like when I make sense. It's a delicious and rare phenomenon. (And I think you should make public these thinkings on Centauri culture. I have Minbari-tinted glasses and tend to forget about the other species, but the Centauri are fascinating nonetheless, and I've always been curious about them.)
In short - yes. ♥
It's one of the best parts of the whole series. *Nods solemnly* Silly people who do not appreciate this are very silly.
...The "hearts" tag doesn't work if you capitalize it. Who knew? Obviously not me...
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Date: 2010-06-21 01:16 am (UTC)Oh, S5. Ugh. I actually enjoyed Lennier in it up until his actions in "Objects at Rest," which I have stricken from my personal canon. (I think it helps that I always shipped Delenn/Lennier far more than I ever did Sheridan/Delenn, at least when I wasn't shipping Vir/Lennier. I never cared for Sheridan all that much anyway--I didn't dislike him, but didn't really like him, either--and BB somehow never managed to convince me that Sheridan was actually in love with Delenn. MF, on the other hand, played it to the hilt, and was adorable.)
And yes, Lise. Lise gives me hives even this early. She's too tied up in the S5 Garibaldi plotline that makes me want to *headdesk* into eternity.
Now I want to see some space warrior butterflies.
no subject
Date: 2010-06-21 03:02 am (UTC)Oddly, it was writing fanfic that drove me back around to realizing that, in my mind at least, that was part of why Delenn loved him. Lennier knows all the dark sides of her soul, and doesn't judge her for it - his love is almost too unconditional. He doesn't give her anything to live up to, because he'll always forgive her, and she's too hard on herself to go along with that. Whereas Sheridan has no concept of the terrible things she's done, and... making up to him for those secrets forces her to be better, I think, in her mind. Or at least that's what I came up with the first time through - I have no idea what of that will hold up to a second viewing.
She's too tied up in the S5 Garibaldi plotline that makes me want to *headdesk* into eternity.
Ahaha, I'm glad I'm not the only one who detests that whole plotline.
You know, so do I. I suppose, when you think about it, the Vorlons do kind of look like butterflies when they're out of their encounter suits....
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Date: 2010-06-21 04:08 am (UTC)I always felt like he didn't really know her, like he didn't appreciate all the she was, in the same way Lennier did.
Yes, this. I like your rationalization of it, though. I think my other problem with their relationship was the sense of inevitability which hung over it the whole time. Delenn was always going to be linked to a human, and Sheridan was The One, and it just...happened as expected. I guess I expected more.
Ahaha, I'm glad I'm not the only one who detests that whole plotline.
Oh my GOD, at least two-thirds of the fics I've written for B5 are in some way a method of rewriting that damn plotline. Argh, argh, argh, Garibaldi, you are better than that.
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Date: 2010-06-21 04:34 am (UTC)Ahhhhh, the whole inevitability thing. That drove me nuts for a long time, and it's doing it to me again in this second viewing, even worse. There are moments in the first season where it's so damned clear that JMS is setting up Delenn to end up with Sinclair, and then, poof! Sinclair disappears while Delenn is in the cocoon, and when she comes out all of a sudden it's like "oh, Sheridan, he's the one!" UH, HELLO. A week ago you thought SINCLAIR was the one. It makes it kind of hard not to have this THING in my head where Delenn may say she's not just going after this whole thing with Sheridan to make up for the war and follow the prophecy, and later she does really really really seem to love him, but in reality, at the beginning, I have no doubt she's cunning and ruthless enough to love him for no other reason than that he is the fulfillment of this prophecy that she's decided is going to be about her, and he's the opportunity for her to make up for this horrible thing that she did.
I guess I expected more.
Me, too. Very much, me too. Every time someone is like "oh, Delenn's just using him!" or something, like the ISN guys in S4, I can't help but sit there quietly thinking "SORT OF, YES," even though she obviously does also love him. But that's Delenn - nothing is simple, and everything is sort of wheels within wheels, and she's so good at manipulating people that half the time I'm pretty sure she's done a convincing job of lying to herself, too.
...And, um, if I haven't made it blindingly clear yet by my tendency to have An Idea Prepared on just about everything that has ever needed to be rationalized about Delenn, her and Sheridan and Lennier are pretty much the focus of every damned thing I've ever written in B5. Well. Them, and Marcus/Ivanova. Because even a crazy Minbari fan needs some adorable doomed Human love every now and then, and I do genuinely, passionately love Ivanova. ♥
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Date: 2010-06-21 08:22 pm (UTC)I have to admit that even though I've read the original plot outline where Delenn and Sinclair get together (and have their magically-aging baby!), I still don't get the sense in S1 that they were meant to end up together. Even the ceremony in "Parliament of Dreams" seems more like a red herring than anything else. Maybe my reading of it was poisoned by foreknowledge of Delenn/Sheridan, though. (Also, I haven't gotten to "Babylon Squared" in my rewatch yet, so maybe there's more there.)
But that's Delenn - nothing is simple, and everything is sort of wheels within wheels, and she's so good at manipulating people that half the time I'm pretty sure she's done a convincing job of lying to herself, too.
Yes, yes, this! And Sheridan just has no idea--maybe at the beginning he's a little weirded out, but he gets over it pretty quickly--which is a little frustrating.
Them, and Marcus/Ivanova. Because even a crazy Minbari fan needs some adorable doomed Human love every now and then
Siiiigh. Oh, Marcus. And Marcus/Ivanova. I have a hard time reading fic about them, because I really like the unrequited quality of their relationship, and reading fic where they requite it is always somehow disappointing. But I love fics where it remains doomed.
and I do genuinely, passionately love Ivanova. ♥
\O/
Ivanova is my favorite character from anything. Ever. She has some competition (Laura Roslin, Cordelia Vorkosigan, Geoffrey Tennant, Benton Fraser), but no one really matches her. If her awesome didn't overwhelm all of my synapses, I might be embarrassed by how incredible I think she is.
I'm pretty sure I must have imprinted on her or something during the few S3 episodes I watched when it was first airing (I think I was twelve, so I was ripe for that kind of influence), because I definitely remembered her being awesome before I started watching for real last spring.
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Date: 2010-06-21 08:53 pm (UTC)And Sheridan just has no idea--maybe at the beginning he's a little weirded out, but he gets over it pretty quickly--which is a little frustrating.
It is definitely frustrating. I'm torn between thinking it's cute sometimes (because he's so in love that he just can't seem to put the pieces together and realize, hello, she's kind of scary!), but at the same time it's really annoying to have this fantastically awesome, frankly terrifying woman who even the show sometimes seems to forget is as badass as she is, precisely because only a few of the characters are aware of that... and her husband isn't one of them.
Honestly, I'm sitting here, now, thinking "okay, who does know how scary Delenn is?" And honestly, I can come up with Lennier, Neroon, a handful of other Minbari, and then... possibly G'Kar? I don't particularly get the impression that he does from any actual interaction between them, but I sort of hope that he might, given his claim to know that everyone on the station isn't what they seem. And then Kosh, who undoubtedly views her as a weapon in his arsenal. I wish Susan knew (I suspect she figures it out later?), because the mental image of them hanging out and being terrifying and awesome together is just fantastic, but the show gives them shockingly little time together, that I remember.
But I love fics where it remains doomed.
Agreed. I like to try to find glimmers of hope just before the doom, because I'm a hopeless romantic like that. ;) I think the one time I really managed it was an AU for "Day of the Dead," where Susan hadn't left.
I have no explanation for my feelings for Ivanova beyond her being Ivanova. She's just... unspeakably awesome.
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Date: 2010-06-22 01:45 am (UTC)but at the same time it's really annoying to have this fantastically awesome, frankly terrifying woman who even the show sometimes seems to forget is as badass as she is, precisely because only a few of the characters are aware of that... and her husband isn't one of them.
Yes! Hell, I forget she's terrifying most of the time. I keep being surprised when she scares me.
I think I remember Londo realizing it at some point in S3, maybe, but I can't really be sure. Susan I'm pretty sure knows by the beginning of S4, because both of them and Lyta lead the expedition to Z'ha'dum to get Sheridan, and I seem to remember Delenn doing something awesome there. Oh, and of course her backing them up in the fight against Earth. (Susan wasn't already in sickbay by then, was she? I seem to have the order of things all mixed up. Lots of things happened around then, I suppose.) If nothing else, I'm pretty sure their stint working together essentially RULING THE GALAXY, HOW AWESOME IS THAT? after "Sleeping in Light" will teach her. ;) (That episode made me ship Susan/Delenn like burning, for real.)
I so wanted to see Marcus show up for Susan in "Day of the Dead." (Well, I wanted Susan there period, but, you know.) I would've enjoyed her kicking his ass all around the station for what he did. *g*
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Date: 2010-06-22 04:34 am (UTC)I keep being surprised when she scares me.
Precisely. And honestly, I suppose that's part of what's so awesome about her - she's not overt about it like Susan, and she's not what you expect a total bad-ass character to be like. Which just makes her an extra billion times more bad-ass, of course.
And of course you're right about the mission to Z'ha'dum. What was so fantastic.
(That episode made me ship Susan/Delenn like burning, for real.)
Ohhhhh yes. I need to go hunting for fic like that, now that you remind me. It's been a while since the last time I looked - maybe it's magically appeared by now.
I would've enjoyed her kicking his ass all around the station for what he did.
Yup! It would have been so wonderful.
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Date: 2010-06-22 05:02 pm (UTC)I remember seeing, oh, three, maybe four, when I first wanted to read some. Apparently I bookmarked two of them.
It still saddens me that no one has written the missing scene from "Soul Mates" where Ivanova teaches Delenn all about human hair care. I want to do it myself, but I don't bother to do anything besides shampoo and brush mine, so I don't think I could get the details right.
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Date: 2010-06-22 09:14 pm (UTC)I want to do it myself, but I don't bother to do anything besides shampoo and brush mine, so I don't think I could get the details right.
Me too. Somebody who's actually good with hair really should do it.