bsg - the second try

[rivendellrose]

I didn't think I was going to write a review/commentary about the BSG pilot, since I already wrote one 2.5 years ago, and most of my opinions haven't changed. Especially the bits about it irresistibly reminding me of B5 in places. But, hell, I've got the tag and the time and I might as well, right? I'm sure after a few seasons, I'll be longing for the relative simplicity of the pilot, if nothing else...



I stand by my previous statement that although there are obviously differences between the BSG and B5 uniforms (circa seasons 1 and 2, at least), I could not actually tell you what they are. I think the BSG uniforms have buttons where B5 doesn't? Oh, and, yes, the pants definitely fit better. No one has saggy-butt in the BSG pants, which is nice.

Again with the "wow, the captain is running around practicing his speech" and again with the "wow, the captain's voice really sounds oddly like Sheridan's." Also again with, at the beginning, my temptation to intone "The last of the Babylon stations" over the opening in which Six murders the peace delegate and blows up the station. Space stations built for the purpose of peace: they just plain always end up getting blown up, I guess. Even The Boy remarked on Adama Sr.'s voice being very similar to Sheridan's. To my delight, he also commented that he missed Sheridan and wished he was there. Me too. Although I doubt Sheridan would do well with all of this, without Delenn there to help him.

Anyway.

I still love Starbuck and Gaius despite themselves (Gaius in particular "despite himself" - it's just so entertaining to watch his eyes cross and bug out of his head every time he hallucinates Six, and to watch him try to wriggle off various hooks like the little worm he is. I also figured out names much faster this time, so I can say that I hate Tigh, rather than saying that I hate "The X.O. Guy." The Boy pointed out that Tigh very much resembles Dick Cheney. He is very right about this. Still love Roslin, still love Boomer (ack, Boomer, the Other Cylon Agent. Ack, ack, ack.) The whole mess with Hilo (Helo?) on Caprica still absolutely guts me. Gaeta is cute and reminds me weirdly of a coworker. Callie is adorable and reminds me of Kaylee, and I suspect(/remember?) that she will not be with us long.

And then there are the special effects. My god, it's like they actually had technology and money. It's amazing what that can do! As well as some degree of, you know, contemporary aesthetic sense. Coming at all of this straight after B5 is kind of a beautiful agony - on the one hand I'm going "OH GOD SO PRETTY!!!♥♥♥" while on the other hand the part of me that is insanely loyal to B5 despite all its flaws is sulking in a corner muttering about how awesome it would have been if it could just, you know, miraculously be redone with modern special effects and a real composer (who I notice, alas, is not yet on the show for the pilot), and guest actors who weren't mostly refugees from the cleaning-commercial industry.

On the other hand, I can't imagine B5 without the folks who've left us, so... augh.

Anyway, questions for the future:

1. To what extent is Gaius hallucinating Six, and to what extent is she broadcasting an aspect of herself into his brain? Also, for what nefarious purposes is she helping him, or is it really just because she's in love with him (doubtful, but possible)?

2. Is Gaius in fact the luckiest bastard EVER, or did Six push him subconsciously in the direction of choosing the correct person (the press agent) as the Cylon agent? And if so, why? Just to gain his trust? Or for some other reason?

3. When the hell is Adama Sr going to stop covering his XO's ass and putting up with all his stupid random decisions?

4. The whole Starbuck/Apollo vibe: red herring, or canon future pairing? I realize she was his brother's girlfriend, but there's a weird vibe there that seems to me like it overlays some Unresolved Issues that could easily spill over into sex, from admittedly limited knowledge of both of them.

5. Am I right in remembering we'll end up seeing Hilo again? Don't answer that. It's just a thought.

6. Why are all the Cylon versions wearing the same clothes as each other, except the ONE press agent, who was wearing the same suit that the one we'd seen had been wearing earlier in the episode? Are they premade with the clothes (unlikely verging on impossible after what we've seen of Six), or do they just... psychically coordinate outfits or something?

Oh, and among other random things, I picked up the B5 movie collection yesterday. It's all The Boy's fault, as he encourages my secret desire to be a completionist in all my collecting. So I have some terrible, terrible nostalgia trips ahead of me at some point in the future. I suspect they will be used as filler when I have to take a break from the unrelenting angst and trauma of BSG.

Comments

[icepixie]

...Okay, so every time I tried to type a comment, I ended up having to delete it because it got spoily. So I'm just going to give up some Paul Gross Arms as an expression of my joy: \o/!!!

Also, I am going to laugh hysterically at question number one. Also number four. I can't tell you why, but at some point, you're going to go back to this and do the same.

(BTW, the callsign is spelled Helo.)

I watched B5 for the first time as BSG was in its last few episodes, so I think pretty much my first thought was, "This would have been SO MUCH BETTER with an actual budget and technology and actors. Like on BSG!" Twenty years from now, I totally want them to remake it with a real budget. I mean, I love some of the actors as well, and it's hard to imagine G'Kar without Andreas or Delenn without Mira, but I think I could get over it for the gold-plated awesome that would be B5 with moniez. (And, uh, better dialogue at times, just sayin'.)

I can't say as Adama and Sheridan ever really sounded alike to me. Edward James Olmos has a very distinctive way of saying pretty much everything--very measured and full of portent. (Even when, I admit, it shouldn't necessarily be delivered that way.) Boxleitner is much more easygoing.

Re: the uniforms: yeah, they do look a lot alike. The BSG ones have the mandarin collar from the black B5 uniforms, though, and they have buttons down the front instead of that dumb leather stripe. They definitely fit better pretty much everywhere, on everyone. (I always feel so bad for Claudia Christian in the first 2.5 seasons. That uniform just does her no favors at all.)

[velvet-midnight.livejournal.com]

I CANNOT WAIT TO READ YOUR REACTIONS IF YOU CONTINUE TO WATCH ♥ ♥

I agree with above that Adama & Sheridan's voices don't sound similar to me, but they do each stick with me for being supersexydistinctive.

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

Yay! \o/

Also, I am going to laugh hysterically at question number one. Also number four.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. Your laughter is noted. This is going to be a very interesting experience. I fully expected 1 to be a subject that would be "interesting" in the sense of "OHGOD" in one way or another, but I wasn't expecting that from 4.

Twenty years from now, I totally want them to remake it with a real budget. I mean, I love some of the actors as well, and it's hard to imagine G'Kar without Andreas or Delenn without Mira, but I think I could get over it for the gold-plated awesome that would be B5 with moniez. (And, uh, better dialogue at times, just sayin'.)

Exactly. I mean, believe me, I'm sure I'd be one of those people sitting there bitching half the time about how the REEAAAAL actors (or, you know, at least a FEW of them) did it soooooooo much better, but I'd be giddy with the joy of it all the same, and I really really really wish they'd do it. It'd be so freaking fantastic. ♥

I can't say as Adama and Sheridan ever really sounded alike to me.

There's definitely a huge difference in terms of intonation, I think it's just... honestly, I want to say it's something similar about the quality of their voices, but it's probably just me wanting to see similarities because I not-so-secretly miss B5. And also because I crocheted on and off during the pilot, since I'd already seen it once.

They definitely fit better pretty much everywhere, on everyone. (I always feel so bad for Claudia Christian in the first 2.5 seasons. That uniform just does her no favors at all.)

Totally. Poor Claudia really did just... yeeeeeah. She's so pretty, I can't believe they shoved her in those awful pants. :(

Edited for code-fix.

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

We've got the whole first season on DVD now, so I think we'll stick with it. ♥ It should be... very interesting.

Eh, as I said in response above - I think it's largely a combination of me waxing nostalgic for familiar (and much less bleak) old B5, and then, um, crocheting during large parts of the pilot, since I'd already seen it once. Results in occasional bouts of not paying quite enough attention to things, and making assumptions that are not necessarily overly accurate. :P

[ariastar.livejournal.com]

I LOVE your agonized thoughts about remaking Babylon 5 with modern effects! It's odd; whenever I try to imagine fanvids for Babylon 5, I mentally edit in BSG-caliber graphics. I desperately wish that there would be a BSG-style B5 reboot, only ... y'know, with Andreas Katsulas and as much of the original cast as possible, which obviously can only take place in a magical sparkly alternate universe.

Many of your questions also make me laugh hysterically! The only one that I can in good conscious non-spoilery comment on, though, is #6 -- which is that I just sort of took for granted that Cylon models wear the same thing! Now it is going to strike me as extremely strange. Heh.

[kungfuwaynewho.livejournal.com]

You can't hate Tigh! Tigh is love!

NO DAMN IT I had to edit and change my icon because it is spoilery DAMN IT. I will be better in the future.

God, if you think the effects and visual aesthetic are shiny here, you have no idea. There is an episode in season three that is without a doubt one of the most stunning things I've ever seen on TV or in a movie. Pretty much in general, everything that is good in the pilot and the beginning of S1 only gets better as the show progresses. I quite like Joel Ransom's cinematography in the mini, but by the time they get to the show proper and start shooting digital instead of on film - and on multiple cameras at that - the production values just go crazy. I'm planning on doing a "BSG is the prettiest show ever" picspam soon, so yeah.

[alto2.livejournal.com]

I assume when you say "pilot" you mean the miniseries? Just checking. (Been ages since I watched, so I'm not sure.)

Also, I just have to say that I'm getting really, really tired, in general, of people trying to make everything fit modern technology/storytelling/etc when it's actually decades old. You wouldn't say, "You know, I wish Shakespeare had better special effects, and what the hell was this iambic pentameter nonsense, and good lord, don't get me started on the costumes," so why must we take something that was, in its day, at the height of what television and effects were capable of, and rip it down for being less than it would be now?

Honestly, it's just an exercise in frustration and futility and takes all the focus off the things it achieved, which, frankly, is where it should be. That's not to say we can't say, "Hey, that line was clunky" or that a scene doesn't belong or work well, but can we not assault production values that are a product of their time and therefore can't be helped? /rant

[icepixie]

I fully expected 1 to be a subject that would be "interesting" in the sense of "OHGOD" in one way or another, but I wasn't expecting that from 4.

...Again with the responses I can't write because even commenting on your wording there would spoil you. Anyway, yes, number four is, uh, quite interesting. For particular values of "interesting."

Totally. Poor Claudia really did just... yeeeeeah. She's so pretty, I can't believe they shoved her in those awful pants. :(

And that awful jacket! It always seemed to get rucked up around her chest and in various spots on her back. I remember my first time watching "Midnight on the Firing Line," when we see her in civvies at the bar at the end, my jaw just dropped at how gorgeous she actually is.

[icepixie]

Which S3 episode is that? (The episodes on this show all kind of run together for me...I remember the arcs, but not what happened in which ep.)

Personally, I'm just glad that they apparently got the camera operator to stop drinking somewhere around the beginning of S2. I seriously thought some of the shaky!cam in S1 and the mini was going to make me sick. I'm pretty sure the worst offender was in the mini--I think there's a scene where several characters are sitting around a table (or standing in a circle) talking, and the camera keeps circling and circling and circling, and I seriously had to look away for the majority of that (long, loooooong) scene.

[kungfuwaynewho.livejournal.com]

Exodus: Part 2. Ah that whole episode. It's my favorite episode of BSG. I hemmed and hawed on choosing one single episode for a long time, and then one day I realized I'd probably watched it like at least three times as many as any other episode - and there are episodes I've watched a lot - which probably meant it was my favorite. Although the Pegasus trilogy comes pretty damned close.

I know that the "war documentary" style was something near and dear to Ron Moore's heart, as was the music style at the beginning of the series. I'm glad he was able to let go of a lot of that kind of stuff when it became clear that the department heads were doing stuff that was a lot better. (I also think he started letting Michael Rymer have a lot more control, as well. I think he became a producer in S2, and his episodes in particular were always more fluid and stylized.)

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

By the pilot, yes, I mean the miniseries. That was the series pilot.

First off, I think those two things (Shakespeare's theater and special effects in early sci-fi) are totally different things, and I find it just a bit insulting that you would think one equates to the other.

Secondly, just because I love something doesn't mean I shut off the ability to critique it. If we do that, nothing ever grows, nothing ever gets better, and we just sit around saying "oh, that was lovely for what it was" about every damned thing ever done.

I don't feel the need to slavishly pat JMS on the back for every overblown line that should have been cut, and likewise I don't feel the need to coo over special effects that would look a hell of a lot better if they were done now. What they did was good for the time, and I never said it wasn't. I love this damned show, but that doesn't mean I have to like every damned thing they did with it, and it doesn't mean I'm not allowed to wish that they could redo it with, I'll say it again, better special effects.

Also, I resent the implication that I can't see the lines where something is influenced by its time, or forgive it for things it can't help.

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

Anyway, yes, number four is, uh, quite interesting. For particular values of "interesting."

I'll look forward to that, then!

I remember my first time watching "Midnight on the Firing Line," when we see her in civvies at the bar at the end, my jaw just dropped at how gorgeous she actually is.

She really is just stunningly beautiful. ♥

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

Ha! I'm glad I'm not the only one - somehow when I remember B5 in my head I'm always picturing it in this... perfect universe where the cameras weren't grainy and fuzzy, and the lighting was always a little better, and the space effects didn't look like a low-quality video game. That's how it is in my head - the eyes of love, and all. ♥

I think I did, too, the first time I watched the pilot, but seeing it again was just like "hey, wait a minute, why are they all wearing the same outfits? Except that guy? That's really weird!" Strange little details.

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

Lol. I saw (I went away after looking at my notifications), but don't worry - I think I'd already seen pics of that around somewhere. And I don't know how it happens, and that's all the really matters, right?

There is an episode in season three that is without a doubt one of the most stunning things I've ever seen on TV or in a movie.

Oooo. I can't wait to see!!!

I quite like Joel Ransom's cinematography in the mini, but by the time they get to the show proper and start shooting digital instead of on film

I'm so glad you mentioned this, because we've been getting some funny graininess in the first few episodes (just watched "33" and "Water"), and I'm glad to know that'll probably go away. It's not a big deal, it's just one of those funny little things, and... well, The Boy brought a really awesome big TV into the relationship, which means I can actually see these things, as I never could on my tiny little one that I had before I moved in with him. :P Boys. They like their tech toys.

I'm planning on doing a "BSG is the prettiest show ever" picspam soon, so yeah.

Eeeee. ♥

[kungfuwaynewho.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I think they really tried to copy the cinematography of the mini at first, and that led to the fake grainy and the super-shaky for awhile. Then they kind of forged their own path (Stephen McNutt becomes the DP, and the man is a GENIUS) and it was great. They do always kind of shoot the docking bay overexposed with some blown-out grain, but it works for me in that space.

There were plenty of episodes I saw blown up on the big screen at my local movie theater when I was at school, and everything held up. That's pretty amazing.

[alto2.livejournal.com]

First: I said "in general" in my comment for a reason. I'm seeing this sort of sentiment everywhere on BTR (and other places, but most recently there) and I'm just getting tired of it. I wasn't saying it was only coming from you. I just...reached my limit when I read your post. B5 isn't BSG and it never will be--as well it shouldn't be--and I find the comparison tiresome. That said, there's no personal attack from this end, just a general observation. If you choose to take it personally, though, that's your choice.

Second, Shakespeare is an extreme example, but I don't think an unfair one if we're discussing differences over time.

I don't feel the need to slavishly pat JMS on the back for every overblown line that should have been cut

Whoa! I never, EVER said that. My comment very clearly says that I don't have a problem with that sort of criticism (and I have, in fact, just recently blasted him for some clunky-ass lines myself, so I'm more than a little surprised). Good writing is always good writing, and bad writing is always bad. It's not subject to the whims of time (though storytelling style certainly is, as you see pretty easily if you watch the average prime-time series from the 80s--and I've already expressed my views on that style being a product of its time elsewhere). It's mostly the effects differences that I have a problem with. Logan's Run won an Oscar for special effects. The next year, Star Wars blew it out of the water. Does that mean that it's okay to sit here and make substantive criticism of LR's effects despite the fact that they took the best possible advantage of what was available a year before? I don't think it is, and THAT is the sort of thing that bugs me.

[kungfuwaynewho.livejournal.com]

The problem with a lot of the effects work on B5 is that they were trying something new - CGI on TV. Anytime you try to be a trailblazer, you're going to inevitably be the one to deal with all the mistakes and shitty first generation systems, etc. There's some movie from the 80s that has the first fully digital character - a knight jumps out of a stained glass window, I can't remember the name of the movie now, I watched it in class - and, you know, it looks awful. But someone had to be the first to go for it, and that's kind of the way I feel about B5.

THAT SAID, there are plenty of dated special effects throughout the years that still hold up, because even though I know that the skeletons in Jason and the Argonauts (1960s) are stop-motion, and they look it, and they're jerky and sure, that whole scene would look ca-razy with modern technology...that scene is awesome. Because it's not just about the SFX tech alone. It's about the whole package. Dodgy or dated effects in a sequence with great camerawork, great cinematography, some awesome fight choreography, etc. are still going to work just fine. Dodgy or dated effects plunked down into the middle of a scene with questionable production values just end up looking worse.

Like, I don't blame B5 for having old SFX. I do blame it for not properly lighting its digital models, for sticking with those godawful digital alien planet exterior shots instead of recognizing that they looked like hot ass and switching back to good-old matte paintings, and for not being able to shoot live-action against a green screen - or for not being able to composite those shots together, I can't tell which - without making everything fuzzy and blurry. And those are all things that could be done on a low budget, so this isn't a "they couldn't help it, they were poor" thing.

Secondly, just because I love something doesn't mean I shut off the ability to critique it.

I tend to critique the things I love more, because I love them. They matter to me. I end up thinking about them and rewatching them, etc. So, you know.

[kungfuwaynewho.livejournal.com]

I think you can do critiques of dated effects that do take into account the time from which they originated. I did that in a comment below. And those critiques generally don't have to do with "King Kong's effects suck why didn't they have CGI in the 30s" as much as how those effects are used. You can have bad effects that are bad because they're bad, and not because they're old, and for me, that's the problem with B5's effects. I mean, Star Trek TOS's effects are almost thirty years older, and I think that they've held up better. I don't wince watching it nearly as often as I do watching early B5.

I also don't know that saying "I wish this show could have had better effects" is ripping it down or slamming it for being a product of its times. I mean, seriously, how much cooler would the show look with some really great SFX? But I think that only works when you're talking about replacing like effects with like. Better CGI instead of dodgy CGI. Better CGI instead of perfectly good miniature photography doesn't work, and this is where George Lucas and the Special Edition Star Wars films screwed up. Because then you're interfering with more than just the effects; it ends up muddling the overall visual aesthetic of the piece. Modern CGI mixed in with 1970s film stock leads to dissonance. I don't think you would have that dissonance in imagining shinier CGI in B5, especially since the CGI on the show does markedly improve from the beginning to the end.

I think, bottom line, this is just a difference in film critique standards. Normally critique tends to take the view that considering the film in context is absolutely necessary - and I would agree. I think it doesn't make any sense to watch, say, classic Hollywood cinema and complain that there aren't enough jump cuts. I think where perhaps the conflict comes in is conflating fannish ponderings with critique.

As far as Shakespeare goes, I think people do in fact say those things. Which is why we get modern retellings and the like. I'm not prepared to say that Clueless or 10 Things I Hate About You are horrible movies that disrespected the Bard and they should have just performed the original plays with all the original dialogue and goddamnit, I expect ruffs. There's a place for both.

[alto2.livejournal.com]

And those critiques generally don't have to do with "King Kong's effects suck why didn't they have CGI in the 30s" as much as how those effects are used.

I don't have a problem with that. I have a problem with "Why couldn't they have made X Series NOWWWW and not when they made it???" which is what I seem to keep seeing all over the place. (Though I gotta say, I think I'd disagree about TOS, but then a lot of TOS, aside from the actual storytelling, doesn't hold up well for me.)

this is where George Lucas and the Special Edition Star Wars films screwed up. Because then you're interfering with more than just the effects; it ends up muddling the overall visual aesthetic of the piece.

YES. Not just there, but several of the Doctor Who DVDs have either replaced the FX or give you the option to. This is why I hated the Special Edition of The Five Doctors--the new effects looked far more out of place than the old ones--and I watched Earthshock with the new ones for about ten minutes before I couldn't stand it anymore and switched back. Re: B5, though, honestly, I consider the effects part of the whole package, and am not bothered by them except in rare situations. I wouldn't want to swap them out any more than I like swapping them out of DW.

As for Shakespeare, I'm talking about period Shakespeare, not re-imagined Shakespeare-based productions, which is what I would consider both of your examples (and I have no problem with those, either). A better example might be folks who would say (and lord knows, many do, and the younger they are, the more likely it is), "Wow, wouldn't Casablanca be better if they'd made it in color?" Um....no. No, it wouldn't.

[kungfuwaynewho.livejournal.com]

I don't have a problem with that. I have a problem with "Why couldn't they have made X Series NOWWWW and not when they made it???" which is what I seem to keep seeing all over the place.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, then, because I don't see why that isn't an observation or preference that can't be brought up. Then again, I don't read those comments with the insufferably whiny tone you seem to, heh.

I mean, we've all got fandom-specific pet peeves. I'm not fond of people who hate a show but keep watching it and posting about it obsessively in a super-bitter way. But I don't think it would be my place to tell them to not do that, I guess. If that's how they choose to engage with the material...I mean, I can think it's a waste of their time or whatever, but saying that probably isn't going to change their minds.

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

Here's the way I see it (in short, because ohshit I shouldn't be replying from work, but I keep seeing my notifications and I'm bad at impulse control):

I love this thing. Because I love it, I want it to be as good as it can be. I want other people, people who can't see through outdated special effects and things like that, to see how unbelievably awesome it is. I want other people to love it as much as I do, and I want it to be as beautiful in every way as I see it being at its core.

I mean, we've all got fandom-specific pet peeves. I'm not fond of people who hate a show but keep watching it and posting about it obsessively in a super-bitter way. But I don't think it would be my place to tell them to not do that, I guess.

Also, this. Especially the last sentence.

[bulleteyes.livejournal.com]

Ever seen the film "The Hidden"?

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0093185/

When I saw the first trailer I could not believe this little film had such a stunning woman.

First time I ever saw her. Never forgot her.

My daughter met her at a con and told me she is just as gorgeous in person.

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

My daughter met her at a con and told me she is just as gorgeous in person.

♥ That's so good to hear.

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

There were plenty of episodes I saw blown up on the big screen at my local movie theater when I was at school, and everything held up. That's pretty amazing.

Yay! ♥

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

But someone had to be the first to go for it, and that's kind of the way I feel about B5.

Totally. It was really brave of them to make that first move over to totally CG special effects, and by necessity that's going to look a bit dodgy. That's totally understandable. And yeah, it's mostly the composites and the refusal to go back to matte paintings that bother me, too. The fuzzy camera-work just drives me crazy - it hurts some really awesome and important scenes (and makes me rip my hair out when I'm trying to make graphics, by extension from that).

In fairness, I suspect the reason they never went back to plain old matte paintings might have been that matte paintings mean hiring painters, and if you already have the guys working on the laptops... it might seem more reasonable to just stick with them. And I was impressed by how nice the planetary landscapes got in S5 (there was a big leap in the quality of the graphics in that season, in general). Mars looks pretty nice, then, as does the Drazi Homeworld. But... really? MINBAR. *Cries* Minbar could have been so beautiful!

I tend to critique the things I love more, because I love them. They matter to me.

Exactly! If I watch something I don't like, I don't care if it's got flaws.

[kungfuwaynewho.livejournal.com]

The fuzzy camera-work just drives me crazy - it hurts some really awesome and important scenes (and makes me rip my hair out when I'm trying to make graphics, by extension from that).

Oh, like John and Delenn's first actual kiss? Which looks like it was shot through some cheesecloth after they rubbed vaseline all over the lens? But the fucking White Stars are crystal clear!

In fairness, I suspect the reason they never went back to plain old matte paintings might have been that matte paintings mean hiring painters, and if you already have the guys working on the laptops...

I can definitely see using digital mattes for one-off shots, but for something like Minbar? That we're going to see all the time? I don't understand not taking the time and energy and money to make a really, really solid establishing shot. Who cares that it would get used over and over; it's not like we didn't see essentially the same four or five establishing shots of B5. (Of course, if I remember correctly, I think I remember JMS on the Lurker's Guide talking about how beautiful the Minbar exterior shots are, so...yeah. And that's why you need a writing showrunner and a separate production showrunner!)

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

Oh, like John and Delenn's first actual kiss?

Yeah, like that. *Dies* I mean, don't get me wrong, I love the White Stars - very pretty ships - but, kind of not really the point at that moment.

I can definitely see using digital mattes for one-off shots, but for something like Minbar? That we're going to see all the time? I don't understand not taking the time and energy and money to make a really, really solid establishing shot.

Exactly my feeling. As for the fact that JMS goes on about how lovely they are... I suspect that's a combination of justified pride in something that probably did take a long time, and flat-out PR. God forbid anybody admit that something was less than perfect or less than what they intended. I mean, we're talking about the guy who freaks out when anyone indicates he might have borrowed a thing or two from Tolkien... while Marcus is sitting there with his Elfstone little Minbari pendant, wondering what all the fuss is about.

[kungfuwaynewho.livejournal.com]

JMS's inability to ever admit something didn't work out unless it's because HE WAS DYING OF THE FLU or SOMEONE ELSE WROTE IT or THE HOTEL THREW AWAY HIS NOTES is one of those things that makes me argh.

He borrowed things from Tolkien? I never would have guessed. I've never heard anything about standing on a bridge and not letting people pass before.

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

He did admit the monster in "Grey 17 Is Missing" was worth apologizing to every person who's ever watched the show... but I'm sure the Lurker's Guide just omitted the bit about how someone broke into his house to add that bit to the script. :P

I've never heard anything about standing on a bridge and not letting people pass before.

Yeah, that's the one that gets me, too. I wonder what their position is on Balrogs? :P

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

I realize that you said "in general," but I hope you can understand why getting this comment in my journal makes me feel like it's a personal attack against me and the way I interact with the series. You brought it to my journal and responded directly to something I said in my entry with it - in my book, that means it's a personal argument at the very least, if not a personal attack.

Considering how you hyperbolically pulled Shakespeare into the argument, I can only say that I responded with hyperbole on the "slavish patting on back" front.

Special effects change. Some people like the idea of seeing things they love with better special effects. I'm one of them. Additionally, one of the truisms of media is that reboots happen. Rewrites happen. People are always rewriting and reproducing the stories of previous generations. For instance - to bring back your argument - Shakespeare did it. The fact that Shakespeare rewrote a lot of stuff from previous authors and sources doesn't mean that those original sources are without merit, but it does mean that new generations get to appreciate those stories. That happens to be one of the things I love about storytelling - the fact that several hundred years later, we're still retelling the story of, say, King Arthur, in ways that every new generation finds interesting. That's how stories grow with us. I want B5 to grow with us just like King Arthur. I want it to grow and change with us. That doesn't mean that the original won't always be special - we still read Malory and Tennyson and Chretien de Troyes and all the others along with T.H. White and... oh, Marion Zimmer Bradley and whoever is responsible for the writing on the new BBC series. The point is that the story lives beyond the writer. That's why Doctor Who is still going, just as relevant for new generations of kids as it was in the 60s, even though Verity Lambert is dead. It's the same thing.

Stories are retold. That's what brings people back to the original sources. If they're not retold, a lot of times people forget about them. And, like it or not, special effects are a big part of storytelling in sci-fi, and a lot of people have a hard time dealing with special effects that aren't up to date. You and I don't, maybe because we can see past that to what's at the core, but that's not how a lot of people work, and good stories deserve to be known by as many people as possible. Ergo, I hope they redo B5 someday. Because I damned well want this story to live forever.