apocalypse-predicting twit figures out how time-zones work

[rivendellrose]

Harold Camping, the twit who has been (once again) predicting the end of the world, this time for the 21st of this month (aka "tomorrow"), has finally figured out that if, as he originally said, the end days would begin at 6pm local time in each time zone starting on the west coast... that would mean it wouldn't get to most of the world until the 22nd. Oops!

But don't worry. He's figured it out now. The end of the world actually starts tonight!

Which is fine with me, as I always like to have a bit of a party during a supposed apocalypse, and we already had plans to go out with one of The Boy's friends and his wife this evening. Copper River salmon, here I come. ♥

And before anyone asks (not that I really think anyone would, but you never know...); no, I don't think the world will end tonight. Although I am starting to suspect that the beautiful sun Seattle has had the last few days is leaving us, and it may even rain. Which would suck, as I'm wearing a sundress and very non-waterproof flats. I don't believe the world will end in one big go, I don't believe in the rapture (although if I did, I would harbor a distinct suspicion that most of the people with "In case of Rapture, this car will be un-manned" bumper stickers will be stickin' it out with us heathens, because...), I don't believe in pretending to know the mind of God. If you believe in a god, that's just plain arrogant. And, for my money, not very smart - the universe loves to make people look stupid after they've made a big public statement of certainty.

Comments

[empresspatti.livejournal.com]

I'm hopeful for a Rapture. I figure there will be a lot less noise and cars, no trouble finding a parking place. Less people at the movies, yay!

I'm living large - didn't clean my bathrooms this week and might not take my books back to the library on time. Woo hoo!!

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

Oooo, that's a very good point! I don't suppose Seattle would lose too many people, we're just too godless out here, but the suburban areas around could do with being quieter, and there'd be no more arguing about whether or not we still need the damned viaduct that needs to be either removed or repaired or rebuilt or something.

[websandwhiskers.livejournal.com]

I don't believe in pretending to know the mind of God. If you believe in a god, that's just plain arrogant.

Yeah. That. IMO ( . . but just IMO, let me emphasize, at the risk of sounding like an utter hypocrite) one of the most important things to remember, no matter what you believe, is that you should never do something that would be heinous should you happen to be wrong. I can't swear that when you see the color red, and I see the color red, that we're seeing anything that looks even remotely similar . . let alone that I understand how *God* sees things. . . which doesn't mean one shouldn't try. It just means that one should allow for the fact that everyone else is trying too, and you're not all going to get the same answers. Not moral relativism . . just humility.

. . . what that had to do with the apocalypse or its lack, I'm not sure, but it related to your comment.

[websandwhiskers.livejournal.com]

Also, PS, the only proper response to being told you're going to hell is, "I'll bring the popcorn, you bring the beer."

[dreamstrifer.livejournal.com]

I don't believe in the Rapture (in general, not just the supposed one this time around... many, many Christians don't), but if it DOES happen, I'm going to be one cranky bitch having had to ice so many damn cakes at work for the local high school's graduation.

However, I heard that only the people who listen to the dude's radio program/believe only what HE says will be raptured. So the world's still gonna be quite full after the weekend.

[gaslightgallows]

It's also interesting to point out that many people who WORK for the dude's radio program don't believe there will be any rapturing.

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

However, I heard that only the people who listen to the dude's radio program/believe only what HE says will be raptured. So the world's still gonna be quite full after the weekend.

...Seriously? Who does this guy think he is, talking like that?!

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

Also, PS, the only proper response to being told you're going to hell is, "I'll bring the popcorn, you bring the beer."

Lol. That's a fantastic response, yes!

Not moral relativism . . just humility.

This is so totally true. I mean, I don't know, hell, maybe the world is going to end... but I seriously doubt it, and I'm not inclined to believe anybody who, to me, looks so hideously arrogant and, frankly, blasphemous.

[websandwhiskers.livejournal.com]

Well, most of my seriously Christian friends seem to think that the guy's full of shit . . I don't share their belief system, but still, lot of votes against the concept. Not that lack of popularity necessarily means an idea is wrong, but it is, at least, a highly questionable interpretation of the text.

Also, 'the end of the world' is kinda relative . . . except those folks who are crying about the large hadron collider . . they were expecting a real an inarguable End of The World. I mean, it's hard to argue with a black hole (and I accidentally read a fic the other day that warned for 'apocalypse', and I didn't realize quite how properly the author was using the word, as it gets thrown around a lot . . seriously, seriously freaked me out). But . . . climate change? Zombies? Portal to hell? Alien invasion?

. . . ask the Romans about that sort of apocalypse. Take a long view of history, and the world - the world as we know it - ends all the damned time.

[websandwhiskers.livejournal.com]

. . someone who's world is going to end, approximately Sunday, one way or another. I feel kinda sorry for the guy.

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

Oh, good lord yes. I get the impression that the majority of Christians think this guy is a nutball just as much as the majority of secular folks or whatever other group do. It's totally a minority thing, and really dogmatically questionable.

. . . ask the Romans about that sort of apocalypse. Take a long view of history, and the world - the world as we know it - ends all the damned time.

Hee, precisely. I figure "the world as we know it" is ending every day. The world today sure as heck isn't the same one my grandparents grew up with, or that my parents grew up with, or even that I grew up with. That's life. The world moves on.

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

Oh, no it won't. He's done this before. He did it back in, what, 1994 or something like that. He now claims "that research was very preliminary." I can't decide if he's deluded or just a total con-man.

[dreamstrifer.livejournal.com]

That's pretty ridiculous. A friend of mine pointed out that the guy's company extended the tax extension past October. You know, when the real end of the world is supposed to happen. I mean, really?

[dreamstrifer.livejournal.com]

Maybe he thinks he's God. I dunno. He's just a looney.

[seachanges.livejournal.com]

Con man, definitely. His marks, er, followers, otoh....

That's the thing that pisses me off the most about this kind of charlatanism. I mean, yeah, you and I and many of our friends are having a good laugh at the stupid, but there are people who take this shit seriously, people who have quit their jobs and sold off all their possessions because they genuinely believe this man speaks the truth. Worse, a friend who works in animal rescue reported yesterday that they've been called in to save a fair number of pets from owners who were planning on killing them rather than leave them homeless once the Rapture comes.

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

Worse, a friend who works in animal rescue reported yesterday that they've been called in to save a fair number of pets from owners who were planning on killing them rather than leave them homeless once the Rapture comes.

Oh, fuck that. I do genuinely feel terrible about the people who are quitting their jobs and clearing out their bank accounts and all that, but it is... unacceptable beyond thought to me, to think of people that deluded and callous. And I realize they don't think it's callous, but for god's sake, you do not kill your pets, ever. They're innocent. They're the ones a just god would be saving, you freaking morons.

[kungfuwaynewho.livejournal.com]

I still can't figure out why this story has been so publicized. It's been the lead story on CNN half a dozen times since I first read about it. So a fringe cult thinks the world is going to end? And everyone else cares because...?

(FWIW, when I was in high school and my Bible Study started on the Book of Revelation, that was the moment, I think now in retrospect, though I wasn't aware of it at the time, that I began my journey towards atheism. Because shit does none of that make sense.)

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

I still can't figure out why this story has been so publicized. It's been the lead story on CNN half a dozen times since I first read about it.

I've been trying to figure that out, too - it's been all over NPR the last few weeks. I have a theory about why they're covering it, at least - they've been referring to the troubles, people leaving their jobs and draining their bank accounts, and also to the fact that Camping has predicted the end of the world before, with no effect. So I think they're trying to make a big deal out of it so that he has a slightly harder time sweeping it under the rug when the sun shines bright on Sunday morning, you know?

I hope that's what it is. Because otherwise it's just "quick, distract everyone from the real problems in the world with a fun story about crazies," which, no thanks.

Because shit does none of that make sense.

I remember hearing a really interesting theory that Revelations (...from what I can remember, and I admit that I cannot recall the source of this, so grain of salt is required) is actually an allegory calling out (essentially threatening) the end of the Roman empire. Which delights me, because that makes sense in the context of early Christianity, them thumbing their noses at the empire in a covert fashion.

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

I wouldn't be surprised if he did think he's the 2nd coming. :P

[gaslightgallows]

I remember hearing a really interesting theory that Revelations (...from what I can remember, and I admit that I cannot recall the source of this, so grain of salt is required) is actually an allegory calling out (essentially threatening) the end of the Roman empire.

I also recall hearing this theory--I think it was in my Bible as Lit class in college. And it made me very happy! Because it means that the end of the world already happened, centuries ago! And now the entire species is living in a post-apocalyptic world that does not involve Thunderdome in any way.

[becksbooks.livejournal.com]

Then there's This lovely example of parenting where the parents buy into it to the point of telling their (non-believing) children that they will get left behind.

Go family values!

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

There's a bunch of those. They keep throwing around the bit about Jesus telling people they had to love the church more than their family. Which made a lot of sense in the early church when they thought Jesus was going to show up any day. To me, it makes a bit less sense 2,000 years later.

And I don't think in either time that Jesus meant you should tell your kids they're going to hell if they don't believe the same random little nuances that you do. Somehow, I just doubt it.

[kungfuwaynewho.livejournal.com]

You're more charitable than I am; I totally think it's just "look at the fundie religious nutjobs!" Apparently the story's been popular, which is why everyone keeps hammering away at it. I suspect a lot of the people who've given up their lives and are actively a part of this are depressed or have mental illness, so I just think it's kinda gross the extent to which the story's been covered.

That's pretty much the interpretation I've come to when it comes to Revelation. At the time, learning about it with a youth minister who preached the Bible as being one hundred percent truth and no metaphor or allegory (which...I sometimes wonder how this dude ever managed to read the Bible, because seriously), I was just like, No. I cannot accept this. This makes no sense and I don't want this to be the way I look at the world. I mean, I didn't think of it quite so rationally, that was more subconscious, but yeah. Six years later and I was out!

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

I suspect a lot of the people who've given up their lives and are actively a part of this are depressed or have mental illness, so I just think it's kinda gross the extent to which the story's been covered.

I never know what to think with that sort of thing. Some of them certainly seem to be, but I often find that when I assume these sorts of things are all just people who have legitimate issues, there turn out to be people who seem to have nothing wrong with them at all. They just... got sucked into something.

This makes no sense and I don't want this to be the way I look at the world.

Same, if that could be translated into small-child logic. I wasn't really raised with religion, though - church was always a faintly odd thing that friends' families did and that I occasionally got dragged along on, much to my confusion. My mother swears she took me to Sunday school a few times when I was little, and I tended to just loudly and cluelessly ask where the dinosaurs fit in and things like that. I do distinctly remember arguing with someone at probably a friend's church about how the thing with Jonah couldn't possibly be true because whales don't eat people. I was very indignant.

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

Well, you know... from the Roman perspective, the world did end. ;)

[gaslightgallows]

Well, yes, but that's not the issue now... Unless you consider, like Eddie Izzard, that America is the New Roman Empire. ;)

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

The similarities are occasionally more than a bit striking, I must admit.

[seachanges.livejournal.com]

See, but they think it's a kindness, and that they're doing the responsible thing by not leaving their animals behind to suffer.

What scares me is the potential this has for turning into another Jonestown-type thing, with someone deciding that the way to bring about the Rapture is by killing themselves and their families like that that group that committed mass suicide when the Hale-Bopp comet came 'round in the 90s. Or that believing parents will murder their non-believing children because, like the true believing pet owners, they think it would be a mercy.

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

That really is the worrying thing. I just... don't even know what to do with people who are that far off in their own mental worlds, honestly. Not okay is about as far as I can go with it. And for crying out loud, this guy has been wrong before! Why the hell would anybody put that kind of faith in a guy who's used exactly this line fifteen years ago and nothing happened? And I know he's got excuses - they always do - but he sure as hell wasn't saying then that the "research" was "preliminary." Bullshit. Absolute, dangerous, ill-spirited bullshit.

There's a lot of doomsday cults all the time who don't go offing themselves or anyone else. I hope this one turns out to be one of those.

[ryunohi.livejournal.com]

Oooh, Copper River salmon. I can't think of a better last meal before the end of the world.

[akashasheiress.livejournal.com]

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

It was pretty darned lovely. ♥ Definitely a worthy last meal. Then again, the world seems to still be here, so that's nice, too. ;)

[katherineokelly.livejournal.com]

If you believe in a god, that's just plain arrogant. And, for my money, not very smart

*sigh* Any qualifiers to go with that, or do you think the scientists and social workers who believe in a god are arrogant and stupid, too?

[katherineokelly.livejournal.com]

I read your earlier post and I know you've been hurt. I can completely understand where you're coming from. But isn't it a little hypocritical for you to lambast people whose beliefs are different from yours when that's the same thing that angers you about rapture-believing Christians?

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

Would you like to go back and look at the rest of the statement, or would you prefer to just pick out a single sentence and condemn me for it without context?

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

Read. The. Rest. Of. The. Statement.

Direct quote from the above post:

I don't believe in pretending to know the mind of God. If you believe in a god, that's just plain arrogant.

I stand by that statement.

[katherineokelly.livejournal.com]

I did read it in context. The confusion was over which idea the pronoun "that" refers to.

I read it as two completely separate statements:
"I don't believe in pretending to know the mind of God. If you believe in a god, that [[believing in a god]] is just plain arrogant."

After re-reading, what I presume you meant was:
"I don't believe in pretending to know the mind of God. If you believe in a god, that [[pretending to know the mind of God]] is just plain arrogant."