talking meme day 17

[rivendellrose]

eye_of_a_cat asked "What you thought about (staying vague here!) the direction Discovery went in with Lorca."



So, to start with, while I was confident from the beginning that Lorca was a Bad Guy, I didn't buy into theories that he was from the Mirror Universe until baaaaaasically the episode before it was revealed. From the day Jason Isaacs' casting was announced I more or less assumed he'd be a baddie, because, really, casting directors are not the most creative of people when it comes to using actors in unexpected ways. They like their types, and Jason Isaacs has spent the majority of his career playing some form or other of baddie. Meeting the character did not much change my mind about this, although I remember having a brief moment where I thought maybe I should give the character the benefit of the doubt... and then we found out he collected creepy weapons and that he'd captured the "monster" that turned out to be the tardigrade. That and the next episode erased all doubt in my mind about whether or not he might be the eventual villain (or at least the "Wow, this guy has serious issues, we have to stop him!") of the season.

But with all of that in mind, I thought the folks suggesting he was from the Mirror Universe were a) grasping at straws with their evidence (boy was I wrong!), and b) not taking into account the (I thought at the time) far more interesting possibility that someone can be bad not because they're from the Universe of Bad People, but rather because they've had some really terrible things happen to them and hardened themselves because of those things, and now they think any means can be justified by the right end.

I want to say that I was disappointed that Disco didn't go that direction with Lorca, because I think it is something that we as thinking people of the world need to talk more about. However, if I'm honest, I liked what we ended up with so much that I can't really bring myself to complain.

The first reason I made that 180 in judgment is, frankly, that I am a sucker for good acting and also a sucker for a good villain, and I loved watching Jason Isaacs chew the scenery apart as Lorca once he revealed himself. I loved his performances all through the season (His "I still don't give a damn" in Magic to Make the Sanest Man Go Mad remains one of my favorite of his moments from the whole season), but I don't think I'd ever really seen Jason Isaacs let off his leash to play this much of an off-the-wall bastard before, and it was highly enjoyable. Also, the switch made going back and rewatching his performances throughout the rest of the season really amazing -- he put an amazing amount of tiny micro-expression hints into early episodes that I had completely missed, and it was really cool to see how well his performance worked both without knowing, and then again with knowing what Lorca was probably thinking behind all of those moments.

Second, we did still get the "bad things can happen to a person and they can decide that the ends justify whatever means, and that is a BAD THING" narrative, in the person of Admiral Cornwell, who both agree to destroy Qo'noS and have to be convinced by Michael Burnham that there's another way. That's a satisfying arc for the season to take, given that Burnham was the one advocating a preemptive strike against the Klingons in the pilot, and I like the division of labor here in terms of letting a character like Admiral Cornwell do the bad thing (and letting Sarek once again advocate for it, as he did in the pilot), because we saw more of the bad things that Cornwell went through, as opposed to Lorca's purported history, which was entirely off-screen.

I also feel like they subverted my potential complaint about all bad people coming from the Bad Universe by having Michael see her Philippa Georgiou in the Mirror Emperor Georgiou. While Emperor Georgiou is definitely not a nice person, and she is definitely going to be a thorn in our sides for the next (I hope) seven years or more, because of how much Michael and therefore the audience (at least in my case) feel for the original Philippa Georgiou, we have questions and uncertainty and affection-mixed-with-fear (and also attraction, oh god so much attraction) for the Emperor. She's... complicated, in a way that Lorca absolutely was not. She has the potential, despite her upbringing and her history, to be a decent person. Whereas Lorca, once he was showing his true colors, was plain and simple a horrible person all around. Enjoyably horrible. But horrible nonetheless. And I think in order to have the Emperor, we had to have Lorca be from the Mirror Universe. Otherwise the story wouldn't work as well.

So while I am still faiiiiintly disappointed that both of Disco's seeming narratives about PTSD turned out to be something else altogether (Ash turned out to actually be a sleeper agent, Lorca turned out to actually be a Mirror Universe refugee/counterpart), I'm relatively happy with the way the storyline itself turned out.

It was, however, a big mistake (on the part of the characters, at least) to shove Lorca into the mycelium-power-thing. If that's not eventually going to provide a way for him to come back at a later date via the mycelial network, then I'll turn in my sci-fi-fan card. I don't think it'll happen this season, but he'll absolutely be back. And, provided they wait long enough to not waste it, I'll be very happy when he does.

Comments

[monanotlisa]

Excellent little treatise.

[rivendellrose]

Thanks!

[st_aurafina]

I also loved the scenery chewing! And on rewatching, the epic creepiness of seemingly good guy Lorca is just amazing to me. Some of it is overt, but some of it was so creepy and just little nudges when he didn't even have to do anything bad, if you know what I mean.

(I do have all sorts of questions about not mirror verse Lorca now though. He must have been interesting.)

[nenya_kanadka]

Partly because I distrusted Lorca from early on, and partly because I have to stare at people's faces a lot in order to lipread, I noticed a lot of realllly interessstinggg microexpressions with him even on my first watchthrough.

And just the way he'd talk to people--Michael, from the beginning (and wow did that ever pay off), Ash ("bring her back" was so weird the first time through), and so on...he was manipulative as hell. By the time he talked Stamets into giving them one last jump please, it wasn't so much red flags as flashing red alert klaxons, lol. But he was really good at it, honestly, and like you said--he didn't even have to be overtly terrible a lot of the time. Just a little nudge here or there. Gives me the wiggins.

It really tells you a lot about what life is like in Terran Starfleet, though. Between how Lorca was and how the Emperor was. You have to be incredibly twisty there just to survive. Just, damn.

But anyway--I need to do a full rewatch (instead of just a rewatch of all the Katrina Cornwell scenes, ahem) because I'd be interested to see if I pick up more of Lorca being 'off' now that I do know for sure. Because, I mean, Lethe becomes an entirely different episode, and so many other scenes would be too...

[rivendellrose]

The way he talked to Michael and the whole "bring her back in one piece or don't come back" thing to Ash in "Lethe" drove me up the wall on my first time through the series, because I could tell something was up, but could not for the life of me figure out a satisfying theory as to what it was.

The best I could manage at the time was that Lorca intended to do something seriously against regulations at some point re: the war (on a "blowing up Qo'noS" kind of level) and intended to use Michael as his fall-guy because she had a documented history of mutiny and attempting to make preemptive military strikes. But his reactions to her felt too specific to that. If that was all he'd wanted, he could have used just about anybody. Less plausibly, perhaps, than Michael... but still.

My other theory was that he was definitely gathering a group of people around him who he viewed as personally loyal to him or capable of being blackmailed in some way, but, again, I couldn't figure out why.

Given how much I'd struggled against the idea he was MU, it was kind of annoying how much all those pieces fell into place as soon as we found out that he was, and... well, who the Emperor was in that universe. XD

[saturnofthemoon]

I think the Discovery producers want to bring Lorca back in some form, either the original or the one we all know, but it's all contingent on Jason Isaacs. He didn't seem interested according to the interviews I read at the time of Lorca's death, but things can change.

[nenya_kanadka]

Then again, if Disco season 1 has taught us anything, it's not to trust Jason Isaacs on the subject of his characters. :D

[rivendellrose]

Yeah, I don't normally subscribe to the "actors are liars" logic, because a lot of actors can't lie to save their souls if they don't have a script in their hands.

But Jason Isaacs lies like fish breathe water, and he enjoys messing with people.

What I do believe out of that, though, is that he would not come back for a boring role. If we get Mirror Lorca back, it'll be for something interesting. And if we get "our" Lorca back, the one who was originally from this universe... they're gonna have to find a way to make him just as interesting as the Mirror one, or Isaacs won't be assed.

[nenya_kanadka]

Yes to basically all of this! I have so many things I want to quote back to you and flail about (e.g! YES to Kat's terrible decisions in the finale having a fuckton to do with the shit she went through, and YES to Georgiou being >>> more interesting than Lorca in terms of nuanced villainy and possible redemption and just...as a character generally...and GOD YES to Lorca's microexpressions being amazing) but I have to sleep and get ready to take care of my cat in a few hours when she gets home and write and cook dinner and and and--

BUT YES. <3333

I mean, in addition to STAB HIM HARDER, EMPEROR PIPPA, my other thoughts on Mirror Lorca are HE DIDN'T GIVE A DAMN ABOUT SPACE WHALES.

Like. In Star Trek world, you may as well paint I'M A VILLAIN on your chest in neon green six-inch letters as say "I don't give a damn about space whales." *hands* So that wasn't the moment I knew he was from the MU but it sure did support my "I hate you now" feelings, lol.

<3

[conuly]

Like. In Star Trek world, you may as well paint I'M A VILLAIN on your chest in neon green six-inch letters as say "I don't give a damn about space whales."

Yes, that.

[rivendellrose]

Like. In Star Trek world, you may as well paint I'M A VILLAIN on your chest in neon green six-inch letters as say "I don't give a damn about space whales."

Yup! And all of Our Heroes (meaning Michael, Tilly, Saru, etc.) were visibly "...WTF" about that reaction. And you can see Lorca realize he's made a huge mistake and walk his reaction backward because everybody's so shocked! I can just see him making a mental note that people in this universe are bizarrely sentimental about stupid space whales. XD

And yeah, I forgot to specifically include how much him being both evil and from the Mirror Universe added to the delight of that final fight between him and Philippa, but oh my god did it ever. In order for that fight to have the impact it does, the animus between them needs to be deeply personal, and that pretty much makes everything else worthwhile.

Also, the moment I finally said "Okay, yes, everyone is right and he's totally from the MU?" When Lorca turns down his face to hide his smile when we finally see Emperor Georgiou for the first time. Michael looks so horrified, and then he just smiles. And I knew.

Hooray for kitty coming home! I hope she's doing well. ♥

[deborah_judge]

I just watched the episode in which Lorca is killed and the end of his arc made me sad. Maybe because I was watching all along knowing that he was mirrorverse, instead of noticing all the signs that he wasn't completely a good guy and going, oh, he's a villain, I was noticing all the signs that he wasn't completely a bad guy and going, oh, in the reveal he's going to be something more complex than a pure villain. But in the end he was just a pure villain, and that made me sad. But yeah, maybe he'll come back and be more complex.

On the other hand, in the same episode we got the reveal that Emperor Georgiou is more morally complex than expected. I mean since she ate Seru when we first met her I didn't think they were going to go for a redemption arc. But then she tried to die to save Michael out of both love and a sense of honor, and okay, this is going to be interesting.

[rivendellrose]

He's... complicated. Even in end, yes, he's definitely All Bad All the Time, but there are hints that he... I don't know, is at least somewhat loyal to the people who are loyal to him? He and Landry seem to have a genuinely good relationship, and he engendered enough loyalty from others on his team that he must've been good for them in some way. What I find interesting about him is trying to figure out how many of the moments of "Good" Lorca that we saw through the season were him figuring out how to play the people of this universe, and how much was him maybe expressing some genuine level of loyalty to our crew as "his" people. Because I do think some of that was there. Just... not enough to make him give up on his own ambitions at any point, or have any qualms about using them as he needed to.

I must clarify that Emperor Georgiou ate some Kelpien, not (at least as far as was ever indicated in the episode) Saru specifically! Not a huge difference, but, you know, at least she most likely didn't eat the Kelpien who had recently saved her "daughter" from an assassination attempt. Because that really would be a whole other level of wtf, in addition to just a more visceral thing for us because Saru is the Kelpien we know.

(How to tell that this show started out as a Bryan Fuller show: the eating of other sentients comes up not once but twice over the first season. Also, there is a character from Washington state (!), and the Discovery's registry number is the date of Halloween. /random commentary)

She is interesting, though. I have to admit, when you said you were going to watch the show she was one of two or three characters that came to mind as someone I thought (based on our previous shared fandoms) you would find intriguing. She's bigoted and vicious, but also deeply honorable in her own strange way, and she genuinely does seem to love Michael, or at least to have loved her own version of Michael and to be suffering from the same bleeding-over of that love that Michael is experiencing for her. And Michelle Yeoh is so good -- there's always so much going on in her eyes and in her face.

[deborah_judge]

I was convinced she was eating Saru - she asks Michael to pick out a Kelpien and doesn't say why, and I thought it was Saru she picked? And then when eating the Kelpien she says Michael was always good at picking them? But I would have to back to watch the scene to be sure and I'd be happy not to watch that scene again for a while.

She's bigoted and vicious, but also deeply honorable in her own strange way, and she genuinely does seem to love Michael, or at least to have loved her own version of Michael and to be suffering from the same bleeding-over of that love that Michael is experiencing for her.

Yes, exactly, all of that! And Michelle Yeoh definitely puts layers into the character.

[rivendellrose]

Hmm, I thought when Michael hesitates in picking one of the Kelpiens from the group offered to her, Georgiou said that Michael should know the best qualities to look for in a Kelpien slave, or something like that.

I'd have to watch the episode again to try to figure out whether the Kelpien that Michael picked was Saru, though... the makeup makes identifying individual Kelpiens a bit tricky, but I've seen enough of Doug Jones' work that I ought to be able to tell just by what he's doing with his hands. Lord knows I've recognized him in other roles by nothing but that...

I know canon says twice that Georgiou thinks of Michael as a daughter, and I will totally buy that in the Mirror Universe (unless I'm writing AUs where it's not the case), but... I am prone to rewriting canon on that fact, because there's just so much delicious subtext available between them if you ignore that.

[deborah_judge]

There is *so* much subtext. I mean, given everything else that Emperor Georgiou does, perving on her adopted daughter is not out of the question. And the Michael we see her with isn't the Michael she raised, so I could see Michael responding without being a creep herself. But I can also see how ignoring the daughter thing could make for better ship fic.

[rivendellrose]

I could see a version of Emperor Georgiou who would be fine with perving on her daughter (at least partly because their society seems to be based to some extent on Ancient Rome, and... there's not much that some Roman Emperor didn't get into as far as sexuality, and I understood that adoption there was more of a "this is my heir" thing rather than "this is my child who I have raised from infancy and is just like a child of my body to me" thing), but it might be a bit dark for me.

Just pretending the word "daughter" never came out of any incarnation of Philippa Georgiou's mouth in regards to Michael Burnham works very well for me, though. Whether it means "actually she was my consort" in the Mirror Universe or "they were dating" in the Prime one, or just Michael having unspoken love for her captain. I don't even care. I just love them together. ♥

[deborah_judge]

I understood that adoption there was more of a "this is my heir" thing rather than "this is my child who I have raised from infancy and is just like a child of my body to me" thing

That could absolutely work! And in that way of thinking there would be no contradiction between someone being a consort and an heir.

[eye_of_a_cat]

I thought he was probably from the mirror universe from the first time I saw someone suggest it, but I also thought the story was going to be that he was a traumatised refugee from the mirror universe - not NICE especially but not 100% evil. So I didn't see the twist coming.

I would still like to have seen the Lorca who wasn't irredeemably monstrous but was also shaped by a past in the mirror universe (although hey, we still might...)

[rivendellrose]

Oo, that would have been interesting! I don't think we've ever seen someone who left the mirror universe intentionally in order to stay in our universe, before - the folks who come over on purpose always mean to take something and go back, if I remember right.

I admit, I feel like Lorca is probably a lost cause, since we're getting the "arguably not irredeemable MU character" narrative with Mirror Georgiou. But we might still see his Prime equivalent, and there's a lot they could potentially do there.

[mekare]

It makes me so happy to read all this again and remember watching Lorca and his turn for the first time.

I can’t wait for January!

[rivendellrose]

Thank you! ♥ I'm glad it brought back good memories. I'm counting down the days until the new season!