rivendellrose: (zoe plain)
[personal profile] rivendellrose
Fanthropology seems to be developing some mainstream media focus, lately. NPR hosted an interview yesterday with a woman who wrote a whole book about fanatics of one variety or another (entitled "Who Are You People?"), and today I found a link to The Guardian's article on Lumos 2006. "Interesting!" thought I - "it'll be great to get an outsider's impression of something as fannish as a convention!"

Or maybe not.

Let me start this off with a quote.

This is Harry Potter for adults. A concept that I'd always thought of as one of those minority tastes like quantum physics for children. Or Star Trek for girls.



Straight off, you should have a pretty good idea of why I'm now about ready to jump down this writer's throat. Bitch all you want about the weirdness of grown women dressed as students and witches. Gripe vociferously, if you so desire, about the uber-intellectualization and analysis of a children's book series. I'll just sit back and smile about still further proof that most people (even writers) don't understand the one great truth of literary analysis: you can analyze anything. Seriously. Put me in a room with a TV for the span of one segment of any (fictional) tv show and a commercial break, and I could come back to you with at least... oh, three subjects for literary analysis papers. And given a bit of time, I could write a fair amount of highly intellectualized analysis on any of those subjects. It's not hard, people. You just have to have the training, the will, and a little bit of instinct for intellectual and artistic bullshitting. The inherent value of the subject matter isn't what matters (although you'll get more out of some things than others, naturally, and you'd do better to start with something either well-written or voluminous), it's what you can pull out of it, and how skilled you are at doing so. A good essay-writer can pull off a fabulous analysis of just about anything.

But, and here's where I get angry, don't you dare start pulling that 1970s "sci-fi is for boys" shit. Not here, not now, not in the 21st fucking century. We have been fighting that for way the hell too long, and - silly me - I thought we'd finally gotten past it. For god's sake, how many female writers and scriptwriters, readers and die-hard fans do we need before people are convinced that looking into the future (or any other speculative genre, or, for that matter, any genre at all) is not a sex-based concept?! Shall I list names? Or point out that back in the days when I went to cons and such, I saw just as many women as men? Or note that I actually know more female sci-fi fans than I do male, and considering I'm in the right age bracket for serious geekiness, I don't think that's completely an issue of selection bias?

Next quote.

It started with Kirk in Star Trek, she says. Fan fiction writers needed a romantic partner for him, and since there wasn't a suitable female character, he got paired off with Spock.

I know about 90% of the folks on my f-list write fic of some kind and occasionally venture into writing relationshippy stuff of the homosexual variety, so let me pose this question - how many of you write a given pairing because there's no other "suitable female (or male) character" for one of the two?

I thought not.

Now, being as how I wasn't born yet, I can't comment on the whole thing with K/S. Squicks me like nobody's business, anyway, because... well... it's Kirk. But I seriously doubt anybody came to the idea of writing the two of them together just because there wasn't a suitable female to pair him up with. It's been years since I watched TOS, but I know Chapel was after Spock, and it's not like there was a shortage of scantily-clad women for Kirk, even working on the assumption that people were too terrified of interracial couples to consider Uhura.

The writer does actually encounter another English major, an academic no less, who challenges her... but not in the way I'd have liked to see her do so. Forget the "major philosophical themes" and the cries of literary significance. And forget how every naysayer who speaks eventually comes 'round to the "but at least they're reading!" argument. Forget all of it, except the fact that this art that we English majors spend four years of our lives having drilled into our brains is just as applicable to a Lysol commercial as it is to Nabokov or Dickens. Get used to the idea that it won't kill us - it will, in fact, do a lot of anthropological and psychological good - for us to analyze popular books and media. And deal, openly and realistically, with the fact that fandom and all its eccentricities are here to stay.

And the next time I catch someone making a crack about sci-fi being only for boys, I swear I'll throw a capslock hissy fit that'd make Book 5!Harry cover his eyes and whimper.

Date: 2006-08-09 08:27 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] theladyfeylene.livejournal.com
I know about 90% of the folks on my f-list write fic of some kind and occasionally venture into writing relationshippy stuff of the homosexual variety, so let me pose this question - how many of you write a given pairing because there's no other "suitable female (or male) character" for one of the two?

That actually is the reason a lot of old-school Kirk/Spock slashers give. (And the same reason for why there were so many OCs in early fiction.) Whether or not this came out of women being ashamed of just admitting they like it, out of them needing to justify it or downplay it or whatever, I don't know. But it was a reason that was offered. However, it wasn't the only reason offered. Methinks a fan skimmed an essay on the early days of fan fic and latched onto one point and wouldn't let go.

I could actually get into a very interesting tangent on how it's very interesting that there was a sect of early K/S ficcers who felt that a male alien was more 'suitable' for Kirk than Uhura, but I'll save that for another day.

The article came across to me, when I read it, as someone who was paid to write about the 'crazies'. Especially since she went out of her way to make it seem as strange and bizarre and foriegn as she could. I'd bet any amount of money that the author doesn't believe half of what she's writing, doesn't care how it comes off, and is just milking the angle she was given. So much of what she said is so stereotypical and cliched, it's like she spouted rhetoric and interlaced it with a handful of personal experiences from the con.

Date: 2006-08-09 10:10 pm (UTC)
ext_18428: (Default)
From: [identity profile] rivendellrose.livejournal.com
Huh, news to me. I guess it makes a twisted sort of sense, given the socio-political climate of the time... and yeah, there are whole worlds of commentary that cry out to be made at that little distinction. Or the related issue of finding men in general more 'suitable' companionship for men... reminds me of the oft-quoted misogyny of pre-1950s male elites as far back as Socrates.

...Or, at the very least, puts me in mind of "Why Can't A Woman Be More Like a Man," from My Fair Lady. But that's my early obsession with Rex Harrison rearing its ugly head again. :P

You're most likely entirely correct about the writer - she most likely got assigned this piece and is doing the best she can with it, from the angle that'll get her the most reaction. And really, I couldn't care much less about her snide commentary re: the convention itself. I probably wouldn't even have read the whole thing if it weren't for that quote at the beginning. As a lifelong sci-fi fan, that really got my hackles up.

Date: 2006-08-09 08:57 pm (UTC)
ext_7691: (Default)
From: [identity profile] casapazzo.livejournal.com
Gah. I loathe that "sci-fi is for boys" crap. Some dumb bint wrote in the Times a few years ago about how bored she was during RotK because it was a "boy" movie, and I just had to write in to the editor to rip her a new one. It's a poor excuse for a failure of imagination.

Date: 2006-08-09 10:03 pm (UTC)
ext_18428: (glee! (the doctor))
From: [identity profile] rivendellrose.livejournal.com
Exactly! It's such a stupid attitude, not to mention being sexist and, as near as I can tell, just plain statistically wrong. Argh.

I think I remember that LotR article, too. Stupid people drive me insane, particularly when they're in positions of journalistic semi-integrity.

Date: 2006-08-09 11:35 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] windrose.livejournal.com
Yeah, I saw that article a couple of days ago in another friend's journal. Couldn't even get through it, it pissed me off so much. And yeah, the "sci-fi is for BOYS" thing made me see red. Tell that to people like Joan Vinge, Lois McMaster Bujold, Tanith Lee, or C.J. Cherryh and see how far you get, you ill-informed hack.

Date: 2006-08-09 11:37 pm (UTC)
ext_18428: (spock)
From: [identity profile] rivendellrose.livejournal.com
Syne Mitchell, Ursula K. LeGuin, Octavia Butler, Vonda McIntyre... and those are just the strictly sf authoresses that I've met personally. *Growls*

Love the icon, by the way!

Date: 2006-08-09 11:41 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] windrose.livejournal.com
Hell, all you have to do is walk down the SF&F aisle in any bookstore to see just how far removed we are from the Boys Club days.

Love the icon, by the way!

Hee, thanks. It's one of my faves, too. :D

Date: 2006-08-09 11:42 pm (UTC)
ext_18428: (Tardis!love<3)
From: [identity profile] rivendellrose.livejournal.com
Exactly. Unless, apparently, you're either an annoying outsider or one of those whiney sf fan boys who can't get over the fact that women are playing in his sandbox, too, now. :P

Date: 2006-08-09 11:46 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] windrose.livejournal.com
whiney sf fan boys

That's actually getting to be less and less of a problem these days, thank the gods. It's more prevalent among comic book fans these days than true SF types, and even there it's dying out thanks to the growing popularity of manga and anime.

Date: 2006-08-09 11:50 pm (UTC)
ext_18428: (reading kitty)
From: [identity profile] rivendellrose.livejournal.com
*Nods* They still turn up every now and then (there was a hilarious wank about it over at Fandom_wank a while ago). And I don't even get the comic book thing, given most of my female friends are really into comics.

On the other hand, all kinds of wacky stuff turns up on Fandom Wank. I remember one post, just after I started watching B5, where a guy was bitching about how Ivanova couldn't possibly be Russian and a Jew. o_O What caves do these people live in, honestly?

Date: 2006-08-09 11:54 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] windrose.livejournal.com
remember one post, just after I started watching B5, where a guy was bitching about how Ivanova couldn't possibly be Russian and a Jew. o_O

Uh.

....

Nope, still can't process that one.

Actually, I kinda wish I'd seen that bit of wank. My last boyfriend was a Russian Jew. ;)

Date: 2006-08-10 04:23 pm (UTC)
ext_18428: (water pistol)
From: [identity profile] rivendellrose.livejournal.com
I'll have to try find it again, it was awesome. Maybe if I traipse back through their calendar...

It devolved into everyone quoting their favorite lines and laughing their heads off about a) how stupid the guy was and b) how utterly canonical it is that Ivanova is both Russian and a Jew.

Date: 2006-08-09 11:43 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] windrose.livejournal.com
Also? I am female, and currently writing SF. SF with inter-species gay alien sex, no less! Ze bitch can bite my girly sf-loving ass.

Date: 2006-08-09 11:47 pm (UTC)
ext_18428: (eowyn)
From: [identity profile] rivendellrose.livejournal.com
Good for you!!! Maybe I should try sci-fi again... that's where I started out writing, but I scurried away to fantasy because I thought it'd be easier. Ah, teenage foolishness.

Date: 2006-08-09 11:50 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] windrose.livejournal.com
You should! I am having a blast with this thing. And yeah, good fantasy can be every bit as tough as SF.

Date: 2006-08-09 11:51 pm (UTC)
ext_18428: (Default)
From: [identity profile] rivendellrose.livejournal.com
It's plot that's the major problem for me, unfortunately. I don't know what the heck my issue is, but I can't ever seem to work up a plot to the point where it can carry much of anything even approaching a full length novel.

Date: 2006-08-09 11:57 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] windrose.livejournal.com
Plotting is my bane. That's why I'm so thrilled with the SF piece. Yeah, I'm not exactly doing anything new, but half the fun comes from taking hoary old tropes and standing them on their ear.

Date: 2006-08-10 04:21 pm (UTC)
ext_18428: (eowyn)
From: [identity profile] rivendellrose.livejournal.com
Plotting = the devil. This is why the only things that I'm working on right now are stories that already exist in some context (one a semi-historical footnote, one a very obscure medieval legend) over which I can embroider and fuss. And the amazing thing? I still can't get either one plotted to my satisfaction. One of them just kind of... muddles along with the very bizarre plot of the original, and the other comes down to "Um. And there were bad things. And then he died."

At least that's how I feel about them right now. I'm praying they're not *really* quite that pathetic. But it's hard to tell. :P

Date: 2006-08-11 11:31 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] bluerose16.livejournal.com
Jacqueline Carey!

OK, just had to add that. Will shut up now.

Date: 2006-08-11 11:34 pm (UTC)
ext_18428: (interesting times)
From: [identity profile] rivendellrose.livejournal.com
I still have to read those... they're on my list, but they keep getting shoved back by other stuff that I run into. *Makes mental note to shove them back up on the list*

Date: 2006-08-11 11:37 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] bluerose16.livejournal.com
isurfnsdjkw4eteshfgjfgw34243

I fangirl that series like nothing else. More than Harry Potter. More than Lord of the Rings and Pirates of the Carribean and France and Walt Whitman and CANDY all rolled up together as one.

Maybe I should just force a copy of the first book on you sometime in the future. I may do that. XD

Date: 2006-08-11 11:44 pm (UTC)
ext_18428: (elphaba wicked)
From: [identity profile] rivendellrose.livejournal.com
*Raises eyebrow* Okay, if it's that good I've got to get hold of this thing.

Meanwhile, I have a rec for you, as well - have you read anything by Charles de Lint? I'm juuuust finishing his "Someplace to be Flying," and it's soooo interesting. I keep picking up written-verbal ticks from the Crow Girls, who are apparently a common thread in a lot of his books. They're so cute!

Date: 2006-08-12 12:00 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] bluerose16.livejournal.com
It appeals perfectly to my nature. Which is odd, as most of the communities for those books on LJ are filled with people who love them for entirely opposite reasons than me. I'm not into BDSM, and most of the fandom is based with BDSM folks, but that's not why I like them. There are themes of it in there, but I love them for the richness of the writing and the vivid characters. I also love the strange but interesting spirituality throughout and yes, the romance. The male lead Joscelin is a bodyguard-priest, not a knight, and he doesn't have shining armor per say, but he's perfect.

And I'm always favorably disposed towards books with an intelligent, brave, non-stereotypical heroine. Phedre isn't your typical fantasy-novel perfect warrior-princess: she's a vain, melodramatic prostitute, but she's clever and loyal to her country and she tries her best to do good with what she is given.

Ahahaha you see. Once you get me started on these books, you can't stop the ranting. Ever. >:D

And oh, must look that up.

Date: 2006-08-10 12:22 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] miss-arel.livejournal.com
Word. Major word to all that you said. ♥!

And the next time I catch someone making a crack about sci-fi being only for boys, I swear I'll throw a capslock hissy fit that'd make Book 5!Harry cover his eyes and whimper.

Can I join? Please please please? I haven't capslocked in forever.

Date: 2006-08-10 04:18 pm (UTC)
ext_18428: (crazy in love (Spike and Dru))
From: [identity profile] rivendellrose.livejournal.com
Of course! We shall smite them together! XD

Date: 2006-08-10 04:50 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hoperomantic.livejournal.com
This was very interesting. I was just wondering if we could get a link to the original article?

Date: 2006-08-10 04:17 pm (UTC)
ext_18428: (elphaba wicked)
From: [identity profile] rivendellrose.livejournal.com
...Dear gods, I'm sorry, I totally thought I'd linked to it!

Here's the article. (http://observer.guardian.co.uk/review/story/0,,1837941,00.html) Again, my apologies!!!

Date: 2006-08-11 11:29 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] bluerose16.livejournal.com
KBSDFIBSGIDFBSLD

LYSOL COMMERCIAL.

I would respond more coherently, but I think I just broke myself laughing too hard. Being a future-English major, I know what you mean. SO MUCH. We were able to justify watching Legally Blonde in class the last few days of senior year. And oh, did we justify it.

Date: 2006-08-11 11:33 pm (UTC)
ext_18428: (witchy kitty)
From: [identity profile] rivendellrose.livejournal.com
YOU TOTALLY COULD. And I love that only other English majors (and others with the same knack, of course) can really understand what I mean when I say that. A good English (or, worse, Comp Lit) major can justify anything... and then analyze the hell out of it to prove our point! XD

Date: 2006-08-11 11:35 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] bluerose16.livejournal.com
OF COURSE! It's an art, see...

Date: 2006-08-11 11:42 pm (UTC)
ext_18428: (eowyn)
From: [identity profile] rivendellrose.livejournal.com
Exactly! Ah, the fine art of bullshitting literary analysis.

...I'm such a bad influence. I really do love literary analysis, it's just... it's so easy to make fun of it! XD

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