rivendellrose: (peace)
[personal profile] rivendellrose
Have you ever seen the children's book "If You Give a Mouse a Cookie"?

This is its pseudo-academic cousin, 'If You Give an English Major a Literary Reference.'



Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.
Surely some revelation is at hand;
Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
Troubles my sight: somewhere in the sands of the desert
A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
Reel shadows of the indignant desert birds.
The darkness drops again; but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?

I know. I'm a freak. But this is one of the creeeeeeepiest poems I've read (which, after my poetry class a few years ago, is saying quite a bit...), and my brain nearly asploded (exploding, except with more confusion and fannishness) when it was quoted at the end of B5 season 1.

(Can I talk about anything else lately? I'm not sure. Apparently I was being dead serious when I said that this show was going to take a little while to digest. Forgive me for ruminating in your general directions.)

When this reference originally came up, I thought it was silly. "Sure," thought I - "go ahead and try to convince people that Delenn's transformation is going to be something terrifying." I, spoiled on that whole thing by virtue of my old habit of reading all of whatever sci-fi magazines I picked up, not just the parts about shows I actually watched, wasn't at all tricked. Or at least that's what I initially assumed. Because that exact quote, yeah, it's pretty damned foreboding:

And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?


Not something I'd normally associate with a benevolent and (largely) peaceful figure like Delenn. But that's just the cited phrase - what if we consider the rest of the poem in context? The first eight lines are certainly appropriate to the situation that's beginning to appear at that point in the series. Pretty soon, there really will be anarchy - Clark ascending to the presidency, Night Watch... and of course the "blood-dimmed tide" of the Centauri's Shadow-driven war. "The best" in terms of the series are presumably 'our people,' the crew and associated, or more generally humans and Minbari, who seem to be set up as the more general 'us' of the series. It's interesting to note that the Minbari in particular "lack conviction" - the Grey Council, at least, is aware of the coming Shadow war and refuses to act despite Delenn's efforts to wake them. ("Wake them"... oh, nuts, it's another Tolkien reference. Ents. Alas. But will the ents march to war here? Not especially... too bad, that) In any case, 'our people' not only do not know what's coming, but it will take a good while for the implications to come to them, and for their spirits to be steeled against the choices they msut make. And in this early moment of the series, it's hard to think of anyone more "full of passionate intensity" than Clark, and good old Mr. Morden. A revelation is indeed at hand, though of what, at that point, was still a mystery.

But... the second coming?

In a way, yes.

I could read this in a few (not entirely mutually exclusive) ways. First, let's remember that Delenn is the One. Or maybe she's one third of the One - that bit is a little complicated. (For writing penned by an atheist, this whole show wanders off into waters that, to my mind, are deeply entrenched in Catholicism.) In any case, one could read her transformation as the second part of the arrival of the One to the station - the first was Sheridan, the second Delenn, the third Sinclair. In another, related sense, Delenn is a second coming of Valen... who has also made his second appearance. Or his first, depending on how you read the timeline. Does the story start a thousand years ago with Valen, figuratively begetting Sinclair (his former self, who without Valen's notes wouldn't have known what to do to prevent the Shadows from destroying both the past and the future)? Or is Sinclair the beginning that begets Valen, as the chronological life of Sinclair-the-person would have it?) Another possibility is that, as the second (sort of - again, the timeline is really screwing with things, here) person to use the transformation-thingy, and also by virtue of her heritage, Delenn is literally a Second Coming that will bring together Humans and Minbari... again, literally, given her son, David.

(Total side-note: I don't know why, but I get seriously creeped out whenever I think about that kid. Something about his mere existence in the shadowy future of the serious just scares the hell out of me. I think it's the fact that yeah, Sheridan and Delenn are these amazing, semi-religious figures of legend... but what's it going to be like for a kid growing up with all that expectation? People are quite literally going to be expecting him to be all that and a case of the non-alcoholic beverage of their choice, and it's just not going to be pretty. That's gotta mess with a kid, even one with as awesome a mother as Delenn. Also, in all the little bits of the future that we've seen, we've yet to hear anything about him except that he exists. We never see him, he sure as heck wasn't with his mother when she tottered in to defend Sheridan's good name... where is he? What's he doing? That kind of shadowy-ness always makes me really nervous about a character. Why do I get the sense that it's going to be a case of two rights making a horrible, terrifying wrong? Did I get accidentally, subconsciously spoiled on something, or am I just paranoid?)

Moving on, then. Next passage.

The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
When a vast image out of
Spritus Mundi
Troubles my sight: somewhere in the sands of the desert
A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
Reel shadows of the indignant desert birds.


Spiritus Mundi - the spirit of the world. Appropriate in reference to someone whose spiritual beliefs are effectively animism on the grandest scale, casting the universe itself as both creator and created, splitting itself up into pieces in order to understand and experiment with itself. I love that image, by the way. Just lovely, and I'm so tempted to adopt it into my explanation of how I vew the universe - I'd always thought of it as both creating and created of itself, but... that's just a stunning way of expressing the whole thing. Anyway. "Desert" here is a lifeless distance... space itself, the ultimate desert in which nothing can live. "Lion body and the head of a man," of course, references the sphinx, and I could go one of two ways with the interpreation here. One direction, the most obvious perhaps, is to read the sphinx as being Delenn. This is particularly appropriate if we follow the Greek tradition of the Sphinx, which is always female. Although traditionally a symbol of death and destruction, the image was also an ancient Assyrian guardian of temple entrances, or an Egyptian representation of the king as the incarnated sun god. More to the point, the sphinx is a perfect image of dual nature (human/animal, human/god, and, in this case, Human/Minbari), and also of philsophical questions pertaining to the nature of the self. In the story of Oedipus, the sphinx poses a riddle ("What animal is that which in the morning goes on four feet, at noon on two, and in the evening upon three?") to everyone who passes, and kills those who fail to answer correctly ("Man," who walks on all four as a baby that crawls, on two feet as an adult, and when elderly walks with a cane). The answer requires self-knowledge and awareness of mortality and the passage of time, all of which will come into play in Delenn's progress as a character.

The question of self-knowlege, however, and of the question as a challenge without the answer to which the questor will be killed by the interrogator, brings up another possibility for the symbolic identity of the sphinx in Babylon 5's mythos. Soon after Delenn's transformation comes the arrival of the quintessential inquisitor for the series, Sebastian, who torments Delenn with only one question - "Who are you?" He is an avatar of 'gods' (the Vorlons), and is also, by his former savagery in Victorian London, a melding of human and bestial natures. And surely he is the best example in the series of a "gaze blank and pitiless as the sun." If Delenn fails to succeed at his test, either she will die or he will 'kill' her ambitions and hopes for the universe by declaring her unworthy of the task at hand.

The "shadows of indignant desert birds," in this case, cannot help but call to mind the wheeling, dark shapes of the Shadow vessels, and surely they would be indignant at this Second Coming who will eventually defeat them, had they known.

The darkness drops again; but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?


The darkness, in this case, is a clear reference to the Shadows, who have come again after their long sleep. The twenty centuries (in the original meaning presumably referring to the time since the death of Christ) here seem to indicate toward the thousand years of peace enjoyed by the Minbari after Valen, again returning us to the idea of Delenn as the second coming of the One and the silence of the Shadows after their defeat at that time. "Vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle..." at this point, I'm a bit lost. Okay, so the Shadows are this reading's equivalent of the anti-Christ (I always have the hardest time remembering that's what the last few lines refer to - for some reason, my mind never makes the shift, and I think it comes out that the second coming itself is the bad thing. Oops.) but beyond that...?

Thoughts? Questions? Slaps up-side the head for taking all of this too damned seriously?

Speaking of seriously, many eternal thanks to anybody who actually made it through all of that. ♥

Date: 2006-09-11 03:59 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] narsilion.livejournal.com
Wow. Just wow. I need to check how much longer for the first season to come for me.

Date: 2006-09-11 04:07 am (UTC)
ext_18428: (elphaba wicked)
From: [identity profile] rivendellrose.livejournal.com
Heh. Nuts, huh? Btw, I went ahead and ordered season 5 on your library card... I'm hoping it'll be here sometime late this week or early next. Hoping. *Crosses fingers*

And I just ordered the fourth season on DVD off Amazon... Oh gods, I'm such a geek. o_O

Date: 2006-09-11 04:27 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] narsilion.livejournal.com
I was wondering. I checked my account to see how far off season 1 is for me and I saw season 5 on there. Figured you must have ordered it, cause I hadn't. It made me sad that it's so much closer to coming than my season 1.
Yay, good on you for ordering season 4!!

Date: 2006-09-11 04:56 am (UTC)
ext_18428: (water pistol)
From: [identity profile] rivendellrose.livejournal.com
Yeah, I was talking to Jessie the other day and realized how close we were to her coming home, so I ordered it so that it wouldn't take a few weeks prior to her coming back to actually be available. Because I'm impatient. XD

I hope season 1 hurries up for you!

*Is proud*

Okay I just *saw* this!

Date: 2006-09-12 12:33 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] oszras.livejournal.com
Let me just preface this with this commment:

I love, love, love, LOVE this poem and William Butler Yeats owns my soul. When G'Kar read this poem at the end of S1 I knew that this series would be forever my favorite series ever. And that no matter what JMS would have my undying respect. And now I love you for bringing this up. *glompes you madly*

Also, I never read it in a class or anything so any literary references or anything like that I wouldn't know I just found a book of his poems as a kid and fell in love. So this is just from a unintelligent rambling from a fangirl. Here be monsters and all that. XD

I agree with you here in the lines "And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?" representing Delenn's transformation. She is the second coming of the future to me when Human's and Minbari (along with other races of course) will join forces and create an army of light to defeat the shadows. Also she and Sheridan will form the Interstellar Alliance which will have the Rangers (which mainly consists of Minbari and Humans) as the army that will create the peace for the next thousand years or longer. And she embodies the Ranger pin just as Valen did, that green pin with the Human on one side and the Minbari on the other, both are a mixture both created the past and now the future.

(side note: I believe JMS was raised as a Catholic or a variation of the Catholic faith, I think he mentioned it in one of his commentaries on the dvd's)

And yeah you're right she gives birth to a new race (or mutant if you want to look at it that way) in having David.

Spiritus Mundi, it's a beautiful phrase. And also it's what the Minbari belive that the universe is aware, that it broke itself apart to better understand itself. Starstuff and all that.
So if you take that and the lines below and look at it closely:
The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
When a vast image out of
Spiritus Mundi
Troubles my sight: somewhere in the sands of the desert

I think this passage could be directed at the second season.
So saying that Delenn would be the metaphorical/literal Second Coming, she comes out of the cocoon, while the shadows start to take a bigger role in the coming war. Santiago's death, Clark becoming President, they start taking a more active role in the coming war (but still within the shadows). Since Delenn is a Minbari and would belive as you stated the Spiritus Mundi she sees the Shadows and their agents working to gather their forces, out in the desert as you said space or I think might be a reference to Z'ha dum (because technically up until a few years ago Z'ha dum was lifeless since the Shadow beings were asleep). She recongnized Morden as an agent for the shadows, and she and Kosh tell Sheridan of the coming war for him to release Morden from the brig.

Damn LJ. Posting in two parts again...

Re: Okay I just *saw* this!

Date: 2006-09-12 01:13 am (UTC)
ext_18428: (tea)
From: [identity profile] rivendellrose.livejournal.com
Me too - my favorite poems by Yeats tend to be the ones about Irish mythology, but this one always grabs my attention, too. As for the class thing... we covered it in one poetry class I took, but it was a survey of the whole first half of the 20th century in British and American poetry, so everything went by really fast. It's a fascinating poem, and it really deserves more attention than we gave it in the class... and I wish it'd been given more attention then, so that I could be more confident of what I'm saying about it in connection to B5. I'm sure my poetry prof would be very amused by all of this.

JMS having been raised Catholic makes a lot of sense to me. It's just... there, in the series, hovering on the edges of things.

Oops. And I was looking over my notes in the margin of the poem after I posted this, and I noticed that our professor had explained spiritus mundi as sort of the collective unconsciousness of the world. Same general idea, but a little bit tweaked... I don't think I'd change my interpretation for that, but it's still a little different than I'd originally said.

I try for accuracy... I just fail a lot of the time. :P

Ooo... that's a very good catch on Z'ha'dum as the desert - I'd forgotten that, but it's really a perfect fit!

Re: Okay I just *saw* this!

Date: 2006-09-12 01:42 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] oszras.livejournal.com
Yeats wrote such visual poetry to me. In my head I can see the poetry, it's so colorful and bright. I can just...see it you know. Like in 'He Wishes for the Cloths of Heaven' I can picture the night sky becoming cloths and pieces of fabric that he make a blanket for his love (or someone he greatly admires) to sit on and share his dreams with. Or I'm just batty. :)

I think JMS worked a lot of his issues out through B5. XD

No you did a really great job in getting a lot of the details out and comparing them with B5. I had never thought to even compare Delenn to the sphinx or the Second Coming I just thought it was more about the Shadows/Centauri and their (B5 cast) worlds changing.

When we saw Z'ha dum for the first time I thought that must be hell. Horrendous landscape and there was giant sleeping bugs with eighteen eyes. Yep, my kinda hell.

Re: Okay I just *saw* this!

Date: 2006-09-12 04:59 am (UTC)
ext_18428: (Bleh)
From: [identity profile] rivendellrose.livejournal.com
Ooo... I haven't read that one! I'll have to go looking for it. My stupid poetry anthrologies only have a few of his poems, mostly the later stuff, and I've never been able to track down a full collection of his poems that I liked enough to buy. Fortunately, there's always the internet. XD

Dear gods yes. Not least his apparent huge issues with fathers. o_O

*Laughs* It's a pretty horrible place... and even though I'm not normally all that against bugs, the Shadows were damned scary. Although in some ways I was more afraid of the Vorlons... they were just so insidious, in that you expected them to be good and then... eagh.

Okay, totally random, but I was just digging through some of my old entries, and I found this, from back when I'd not quite finished S1:

Watched a bit more Babylon 5 last night (only 4 more episodes to go in Season 1!) and finally figured out what irritates me about Sinclair (that man over-acts as though his life depended on getting as much emotion as possible into every damned line). But I still have to admit that I'll be sad to see him go - he's endearing, in his overly-heroic, overly-goody-two-shoes sort of way. It seems that every time Psi-Corps shows up I recognize one of the actors (this time it was Jeffrey Combs, well-known to DS9 fans as Weyoun), and, oh yes, Linear is absolutely adorable. I just want to fuzzle him. Except there's nothing to fuzzle. So I guess I'll have to settle with giving him a cookie. Or a motorcycle. o_O Is it just me, or does he have masculinity issues? He was awfully excited about the whole "symbol of masculine sexuality" thing. And how did a guy who appears to be just barely out of the Minbari equivalent of teenage years get to be attache to an important ambassador, let alone a member of this Grey Council thing that it appears Delenn really is.

...Don't answer that. I'm still trying not to be spoiled on anything except what I picked up years ago!


*Is all nostalgic* And the masculinity issues thing? That tweaks me out every time I watch that episode, still. XD Something about the "except there's nothing to fuzzle" amuses the heck out of me, too... possibly because we usually use that verb for my cat.

I can't believe I thought Sinclair was endearing, though. Ugh.

Re: Okay I just *saw* this!

Date: 2006-09-12 05:27 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] oszras.livejournal.com
He Wishes for the Cloths of Heaven

Had I the Heavens' emboridered clothes,
Enwrought with golden and sliver light.
The blue and the dim and the dark cloths
Of night and light and the half-light,
I would spread the clothes under your feet:
But I, being poor, have only my dreams;
I have spread my dreams under your feet;
Tread lightly because you tread on my dreams.
-W. B. Yeats

I love those last three lines so much. In fact I named my journal for the last line. I just love the imagery of that last line, I don't know why but it has always stuck with me. And I know what you mean I can never find a collection that has The Second Coming and this one in it at the same time.

Seriously, I have to wonder if he had mother and father issues. And religous issues as well. Although I find it ironic that an athiest could represent religon far better than so many shows that have Christianity or Jewish etc. overtones.

See if I saw a Shadow being I would die on the spot. But to me the Vorlons were far worse than the Shadows. Yes they were sneaky and decitiful and used your wants against you. But the Vorlons fucked with your mind, everyone's mind apparently and reasoned it was okay because it was for the good of everyone else. That in my opinon is far worse, in fact they remind me of Psi Corp in that way. I have always found that if someone is doing it for my own good 1)it pisses me off more than anything else and 2) their not really they are only using that as an excuse.

I could be paranoid though.

I was all sad when Sinclair left too, I guess it was that he just kinda grew on me or I knew Bad Things were going to happen soon and I just wanted everyone happy, you know?

Yeah, about that masculinity thing. Lennier really does fixate on that doesn't he? I have to wonder why. And fuzzle? LOL

I have a speculation on why Lennier was sent to serve Delenn but I'll wait until you watch In the Beginning. Nothing big but just something I read in a fic once. :D

Re: Okay I just *saw* this!

Date: 2006-09-12 05:51 pm (UTC)
ext_18428: (oh hai thar)
From: [identity profile] rivendellrose.livejournal.com
Oh, that is just lovely. Okay, I have a new favorite poem by him, now... wow. I see what you mean about how visual it is, too. Stunning visual imagery there.

See, the only person in the whole series whose mother is mentioned in anything more than passing is Susan - but everybody has daddy issues. And I think the reason an atheist can handle these issues so much better is that he's not invested in any one side of the situation. It'd be hard for a lot of people who actually is religious to handle something like the Vorlons and Shadows without them actually being what they appear to be, I suspect.

*Nods* The Vorlons are much scarier, in the end, because they trick everyone into believing they're out for the good of the universe. And I bet they think they are, too. And maybe some of them genuinely were - Kosh, despite his issues, seemed like a fairly decent being. But Ulkesh or whatever you want to call him... damn he was scary. And the whole "we're doing it for your good" thing always puts me on edge, too - if it's for my own good, lay out the facts and trust me to choose it for myeslf, damn it. I'm not such a natural submissive that I'll take that kind of shit for granted, thanks.

Yeah - the status quo change probably had a lot to do with it, and a degree of "better the devil you know." I felt a lot better once we'd actually met Sheridan - irritating though he is, he's funny and... mostly harmless. And a better actor, though not exactly by leaps and bounds.

He so totally does! It really struck me when I was rewatching some S1 the other day - when Londo takes him to the seedy club, he's so... at once horrified and fascinated by the dancers. And then his reaction to the description of the motorcycle... poor little guy. As for why, I've always kind of assumed... well, I've never seen a guy who's got 'experience' have that strong a reaction to some half-dressed dancers, let's just say that. Another coin in favor of complete naivete being part of why he's so clueless and hopeless in his love for Delenn.

Fuzzle! You know... you have a cat, right? It's all about nuzzling into the soft fur - hence "fuzzling." Your kitten is probably too little... mine is an immense, lazy beast with vast expanses of orange and cream fluff, so it's almost impossible to resist fuzzling him.

I've seen one speculation that Delenn herself requested an aide with very little experience, and they (the clan? the council? who makes these decisions, anyway?) wanted to assign an aide with enough independent attitude and conservative upbringing to not fall right in step with Delenn's "strange notions," but that never quite seemed right to me. I'm not sure I quite like that as the complete answer, but I could work with it.

Re: Okay I just *saw* this!

Date: 2006-09-12 07:06 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] oszras.livejournal.com
I know I just love that one. Funny, I haven't found one of his poems I disliked yet.

Yeah but she had Daddy issues too. Oh god when her father died while talking to her was awful. Sad-awful and acting-awful, the actor who played her father cracked me up by the whole dying part. I usually hate death scenes anyway people always overact. And it's never that clean -dying I mean.

That's true so many of the religons scream about how theirs is the best- how can they hear anyone else over their screaming?

So yeah an athiest can make them all sound right. Or he could've bashed them all, I liked that he went with the former.

Kosh seemed to truly care for the other races, or at least for the Minbari and Humans. And the whole for your own good - well I might be a doormat but I do have teeth. If it's for my own good I'll decide I don't need anyone else helping me.

Hee! I had forgotten about the dancers in the Dark Star. Yeah, I've known guys who look (like glancing back and forth) but they don't stare. Oh and I loved the whole tenticle thing with the poker players. When the waitress set the ice water jug on his tenticle I laughed so hard I cried. And when he tries to explain it to Lennier? Priceless. "I will take a vow never to mention this again." Hah!

And yeah guy with experience with women would know on the spot that Delenn was trouble - the good kind, but still trouble. XD

I remember when I saw 'Acts of Sacrifice' and then years later saw the first season I had no idea who this captain was. But I got used to him and then he left and the guy I hardly remembered from years ago came on- it was bittersweet for me. I don't know why either really than like you said status quo.

I have two actually. Tobias my first cat is ten and is superior to all other life forms on this planet and does not touch, purr or act cute. Even though he does sometimes and acts like I'm crazy because he was not nuzzling me at all. Dammit. XD

And the kitten is just a little flying ball of fur the only time he's still is when he's asleep, but I get whatcha mean. :D

Re: Okay I just *saw* this!

Date: 2006-09-12 09:25 pm (UTC)
ext_18428: (oops)
From: [identity profile] rivendellrose.livejournal.com
And it's never that clean -dying I mean.

Thank the gods, the closest I've come to actually seeing someone die were recordings we watched in my comparative study of death class. Even that was disturbing, but at least the people were going in a very peaceful sort of way. Otherwise, I'm a typical spoiled first-world girl, in that sense. His acting was pretty bad, though. Urgh.

He was fascinated by those dancers, poor boy! And sure, part of it's probably that the Minbari seem never to wear less than full-body robes, but... if he had any kind of experience, I'd expect that to be less shocking than it seemed. And oh, Londo's tentacles... that so completely weirded me out the first time I saw the episode. Totally silly - I'd just seen the episode with the Narkaleen feeder, and I could swear they used the same tentacle-things over again for Londo, so my first thought was "holy crap, it's the feeder thing again! ...Wait, why is it coming out of... oh my god!"

Poor Lennier. That was just an all-around traumatizing day for him - half-naked women, narrowly escaping being tricked into drinking alcohol, getting into a huge bar-fight, being questioned by Sheridan... and then finding out way more than he ever wanted to know about Centauri reproductive biology. That's a lot for one little acolyte to handle! ;)

Awww, old cats are so funny sometimes. The one I had growing up was 13 when he died - grumpy and determined only to be touched when he wanted to be. And ah, kittens. I'm kind of relieved that I didn't know my cat when he was a baby - I missed out on all the uber-cuteness, yes, but he's hyperactive enough, sometimes, as a 15 lb grown-up!

Re: Okay I just *saw* this!

Date: 2006-09-12 10:06 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] oszras.livejournal.com
Well, I've seen peaceful deaths and then ones that...weren't. The peaceful one was clean for the most part because she was in the hospital but the others were not. In my experience ( which I will totally concede that every death is different) if you go out violently you death won't be as ah clean or peaceful. Anyway it's just one of my pet peeves.

You know I always wondered if the Minbari were just shocked at Human clothing. And our behavior too. Oh, it took me awhile to figure out that, that tenticle thing was apart of Londo it was after the scene with Sinclair when Londo tells Lennier about them that I figured it out. Never did look at Londo the same way again.

And yet he probably thought about the naked women and Londo's tenticles when he went home that night. Oh god couldn't you see him going to look up human physiology just to make sure we didn't have tenticles?

I once popped my oldest cat on the seat for shredding the back of one of my chairs (I have a cat shreddy-thingy for him to play with which of course he doesn't play with) and he wouldn't stay in the same room with me for three days. I mean how dare I touch him! XD

Re: Okay I just *saw* this!

Date: 2006-09-12 10:34 pm (UTC)
ext_18428: (oops)
From: [identity profile] rivendellrose.livejournal.com
*Nods* Makes sense. Violent death is... well, violent. And yeah, I can see how that would quickly develop into a pet peeve, with all the deaths that are shown on TV.

I think they think of us as uncivilized barbarians, honestly. I'm sure Neroon or someone made a comment to that effect at some point, but even just comparing behaviour between the two species... damn do we come off looking childish. We attack by deceit, we lie, we have nothing that they would recognize as an organized social structure, our technology sucks... in short, our lives compared to theirs are "nasty, brutish and short," exactly how we now describe the lives of our distant ancestors. No wonder nobody was thrilled about Delenn marrying Sheridan... least of all Lennier or her clan.

Oh god couldn't you see him going to look up human physiology just to make sure we didn't have tenticles?

Well. I know what I'll be writing when I get home... The images that must have been going through that poor boy's mind when Sheridan and Delenn first got together... o_O No wonder he seems kinda cranky about the whole thing.

Hee! The very nerve! Oh god... our old cat used to walk along on the top of the couch, and since he was old he had kind of a saggy belly... which was just too tempting to not be touched sometimes. He gave me the dirtiest looks when I booped his belly. Very clearly saying "you know, you're okay sometimes, but if you do that one more time you're going to be short a finger."

Re: Okay I just *saw* this!

Date: 2006-09-12 11:04 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] oszras.livejournal.com
They must. And just later on did they figure out we had *some* good qualities.

You know this is funny because I'm having the same convo with John Hightower over at the Jumpy forums. Except it's reversed, he is saying the Minbari advance slowly in technology over the years and that at the time of Valen they had the same tech as us at that point. That Humans grow in tech faster, we grow as beings faster. That the time before Valen the Minbari had a feudal system (that I could see though maybe) and were a violent race (and the fact that only Sinclair/Valen could have brought about peace). Also Valen is considered to be The One, Delenn and Sheridan are not really or something like that. He sounded condescending to me but I'm being overly sensitive probably. I don't agree with it and that's what we've been discussing that and the fact that I don't see the point of reading one of the novels JMS put out because he says it canon.

Personally, I'm glad John isn't idolizing the Minbari but damn give them some credit. There saying "understanding is not required only obidence" has always creeped me out because it's vaguely Vorlon and just doesn't sit well with my Human mentality. But they seemed to be not better but I don't know I like the way they live their lives. Of course I like most Minbari, except in that one episode where Delenn is secretly meeting with Neroon and those religous caste Minbari were going to commit suicide that creeped me the fuck out, man. Overkill much? Just bring it up to Delenn ask her about it. I know that's probably not how they do things but Jesus neither is suicide I thought. Funny, I was just thinking how the Minbari seem to me to be a lot like the Japanese culture. Especially the Warrior caste they seem like samurai's to me.

And Sheridan does have a tenticle...Oh that was in bad taste wasn't it?

Exactly my cat has a really big pink belly and I just love to tickle it, he on the other hand would love to put me in a body cast.

Re: Okay I just *saw* this!

Date: 2006-09-13 10:45 pm (UTC)
ext_18428: (sunflowers)
From: [identity profile] rivendellrose.livejournal.com
Oh, for... okay, the more you tell me about this Hightower guy, the less I can imagine respecting him. For one thing, yes, it's canon that the Minbari were "violent" (ie, engaged in civil war) before Valen came... but let's think about this. That was 2,000 years before the series. Series time frame is... 2260, right? I can't remember the second number. Anyhow, two thousand years before that puts us in a feudal civilization, constantly at war, and sickeningly low on the technology scale. So... either I'm missing something, or I can't see what point he could possibly be making there.

Besides, so what if we developed technology faster? Last time I checked, it wasn't a race, and we sure as hell have a habit of messing things up by that quick development. I hate this kind of ethnocentric attitude, and I like it no better for the fact that JMS seems to encourage it - Delenn's comments on humans being the future and such. Oh, thanks. We really need that. Given that the humans we see in science fiction are inevitably humans with an overtly Western (usually overtly American) culture and attitude toward every little thing, that kind of statement encourages people to believe that cultures can be better or worse than each other, and that ours is inherently superior to those that are different than us. Humans (especially, in my experience, Americans) don't need help to be arrogant assholes about culture. What we need is someone to smack us upside the head and tell us that different is not necessarily bad. That should be the job of science fiction, not to encourage us in all our pre-conceived self-centered attitudes.

...Sorry. That's a long-brewing rant, right there, and pretty much the one thing that I really dislike about B5.

And saying that only Valen was the One is not only silly, but patently incorrect from the evidence of canon. If that's what he's actually arguing, I have to wonder what the hell cliffs-notes version of WWE he saw.

The whole thing with obedience in the Minbari culture kind of tweaks me out, too (and only being told what you 'need to know' - yikes!), but... well, a lot of cultures are like that to some extent. As I love that it's realistically played, in that we don't actually see people living like that - it's the ideal, sure, but everybody has their own ways around it. That's how people are. As for the suicide thing, I think part of it was that they were so unsure of Delenn and her leadership at that point that they were willing to believe anything of her. So rather than confront her, they decided to just end the whole thing on their own terms... and rid the caste of both a disastrous decision and a "shameful" leader in one go. It was horrible (as well as being a really nutjob plot device...), but it was sort of understandable in a really twisted kind of way.

*Snickers* That he does.

Re: Okay I just *saw* this!

Date: 2006-09-13 11:54 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] oszras.livejournal.com
Well when we finally met the Minbari it was around 2240 or 2241, somewhere around there, though I know it was in the fourties. So yeah.

I have the same problem with it as well. And when G'Kar said that the Human race was the key to the universe I wanted to smash my head in with a pipe. Yeah we're the key all right, the key to *BOOM*. Ivanonva was right 'no boom today, someday there will be a boom' and it will be us and our arrogant ways that get us into it. Just like with the E/M war, it wasn't all the Minbari's fault let me tell you. We are just as bloody and barbaric as any other race in the B5 universe so I don't see us as being really helpful in the whole 'hope of the universe' thing. Granted we have our good points as all the other races do but they are few and far between.

And really how many times have we almost blown ourselves up so far? If we even get to the stars we will be just as nasty, good, kind, hateful etc. as we are now, just with bigger toys.

And JMS pissed me off with that attitude as well. And the whole American thing I totally agree.

That's why ST:TNG bothered me so much, gah, we're the greatest race ever? Pffah. Whatever, Gene. And don't be sorry for the rant, let it out. :D I like bitching with you it makes me feel better I thought while talking to JH I was, you know, not seeing the symbolism.

I think, I'm not sure I'll have to go back and check. But I think he said Valen was what all Minbari aspired to and that he held all of the characterizations of all three castes (well yeah 'cause Hellooo Valen and all he created the GC) and that Delenn and Sheridan somehow are not involved with the whole One deal. I have no idea what he's talking about, maybe you know?

John said he didn't have the dvd's and only had the novels so perhaps there is something in the novels I didn't pick up in the show.

I'm not one for novels and such, mostly because the show is good enough for me the rest is just a bonus for the fans. I wonder though...is that considered elitism? Or something?


I'll put the link of the discussion we had in the forum it isn't long and I would like your opinons.

Wait crap. Don't not until you watch S5 just to be safe. I don't think there's any spoilers but just to be safe. ----

Here's the post I'm talking about it doesn't have any spoilers for the show but it does have some for one of the novels.
http://www.green-sector.de/intercom/viewtopic.php?t=700&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=10

If it does though I'll totally understand if you send me hate mail and hate meme's.

And I have so many thoughts on this subject I don't know where to start so I'll just let you reply because I'll never stop rambling.

Re: Okay I just *saw* this!

Date: 2006-09-14 12:15 am (UTC)
ext_18428: (tea)
From: [identity profile] rivendellrose.livejournal.com
Right. And in the year 240, I'm sure humans were so advanced. :P

I just... argh. I fucking hate when writers get off on that. That is not an acceptable attitude to be indoctrinating people into! And yet, it's so frigging common in science fiction that it's almost impossible to avoid it. It makes me so angry.

I don't buy that, either - the memory of Valen is what Minbari (and I still hate that whole "all Minbari" thing, but that goes back to my other biggest sci-fi rant, which is that for some stupid reason all alien races have only one culture, one religion, one philosophy, etc. Bullshit. No race could be like that. People (I don't care whether they're humans, Narns, Minbari, or Shadows) don't work like that) aspire to. They're responding to the legend of him, just as humans are responding to the legend of... King Arthur, or Gautama Buddha, or Jesus, or anybody else who's held up as a hero or ideal to be aspired to. The reality, the actual person... was Jeffrey frigging Sinclair. And that just... no. No no no no no. The person is not the ideal.

I have no idea where this notion of only Sinclair being truly The One could have come from. Zathrus (and I can't believe I'm relying on him in an argument, but I don't really have much choice...) specifically said that Sinclair was the One That Was, Delenn is the One that Is, and Sheridan is the One that Will Be. I have no earthly clue how that could be misunderstood except as either willful misinterpretation by someone who really doesn't like Sheridan and Delenn, or in some kind of... theological mix-up wherein somebody has serious issues with the concept that spiritual entities are frequently multi-faceted while still being the same entity.

...I totally need to leave the office now. But I will talk to you more about this later.

Re: Okay I just *saw* this!

Date: 2006-09-14 01:06 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] oszras.livejournal.com
Hee! Yes well remember though our amebas were advancing at a rapid pace. Okay that was mean I'll stop now. *hangs head in shame*

But why is it so acceptable? If I were to make my own sci-fi show I'd totally make other races cooler and much more evolved than us. At least JMS did say in one of the commentaries that Earters were on the bottom rung of the totem pole when it comes to technology. At least he realized that.

Actually now that I think about it John said this about the human/minbari tech stuff. I quoted my question he answered too btw.


My Quote:
{But I always thought they were highly advanced even a thousand years ago. That they were still thousands of years ahead of us even during Valen's time.}

His Quote:

[Minbari technology advances at a glacial pace by human standards. They weren't much less advanced in Valen's time than they were in the B5 timeframe. Humans, OTOH, went from the Medieval Dark Ages to a sufficient level of technology to challenge them in a war for over three years during the same period. At that rate, Humanity will make up the thousand-year technology difference and be on-par with them in a couple hundred more years...something I'm sure the GC is quite worried about in the aftermath of the E/M War - particularly since Delenn promised Earth technology transfers to 'sweeten the pot' if humans joined the IA.]


I think the last line in his quote has something to do with his fic? I'm not really sure because I have no idea where he got it from...

Also the whole Valen's memory thing? Here's what we discussed:

His Quote:
[Any human can embody aspects of all three castes because we're not tied to the caste system. We are individuals - we choose our own vocations and philosophies rather than being born into them.]

My Quote:
{Yes, but he was The One who Will Be. One of the ones anyway. (wow the wordage) So he would have the charactristics of the all the castes since it was prophacy or at least in Valen's writings that said he would perhaps. And I say perhaps because I don't think Sinclair knew about Sheridian being one third of the One. Zathras knew but that could be attributed to him working with the great machine for so many years.}

His Quote:
[The 'Three Who are One' wasn't Minbari prophecy. That was Zathras revealing information that he'd gained from 100 years tending the Great Machine. The way he related it was by making an analogy to the Minbari veneration of the number 'Three'. Sinclair, Sheridan and Delenn had no clue about this 'Three/One' business prior to WWE. To the Minbari, 'The One' was Valen alone - and when Zathras encountered Sinclair in B-Squared, he said he was 'not the One' because the 2258 Sinclair hadn't yet realized that he was/is/will be Valen.]

That was about my question of the Three who are One thing. I was saying that I could get why Delenn and Sinclair (being Valen and all) would be the One since they both embody all three castes but I really couldn't see Sheridan in there as a Warrior and Worker (because of his love of exploration of new races etc.) but not religous. Anyway there is more but I won't take up all your lj space for it.

I just don't get it.

I really don't know how to explain the whole One thing that doesn't make my brain go all explodey with the past/present/future stuff. But I do wonder about it a lot. That and the Entil'zha thing.

Anyway I would love to go over this in much detail later. XD

Re: Okay I just *saw* this!

Date: 2006-09-14 01:54 am (UTC)
ext_18428: (sunflowers)
From: [identity profile] rivendellrose.livejournal.com
Again though, why are we concerned with the fact that we developed technology faster? I mean... seriously. Okay, so they didn't make a lot of technological progress in those 2,000 years. So what? I really don't see the significance.

I'm pretty sure the last line refers to something Delenn told the Earth Alliance president at the end of S4 - she offered Minbari tech as an inducement for Earth to join in the alliance. So he's accurate on that, unless memory is failing me.

His comment about the caste system, however... strikes me as totally off-base. A caste system does not mean that people aren't individuals. For god's sake, Humans, even in the western world, have only been choosing our own occupations for the last two hundred years or so - up until then it was predominantly determined by what your parents did. If my father was a fisherman, then if I had a brother, he'd inherit the business, and I'd probably marry another fisherman, because that'd probably be most of the people we'd know. Or, going back a bit further, I'd probably be married off to an associate of his to cement their partnership. Same thing. The only significant difference between that and a caste system is that castes restrict marriage and a lot of social interaction to within the same general occupational group. And if the castes are as self-sufficient as JMS indicates in some episodes, they each have people who do all the various jobs anyway, so people are choosing their occupations, simply within the social institution of the caste. And we've also seen that a person can choose a different caste (as Neroon did in a highly symbolic way), so... it really doesn't make a fuck of a lot of difference.

So... this guy is convinced he's JMS, then? :P

Who the fuck cares if that bit wasn't Minbari prophecy? What's his point? Okay, so Marcus was probably the only ranger who knew that Delenn was also The One, because I figure that's not the kind of thing Delenn would go around telling people - she's not crass like that. And hopefully Sheridan won't either. So what? I just totally don't get what he's getting at there.

Re: Okay I just *saw* this!

Date: 2006-09-14 02:36 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] oszras.livejournal.com
Oh, sorry I forgot to put the context of that first quote. I don't know actually how it got started about the Earth tech he responded to one of my replies to someone else so I'll have to go back and look at what I said there.

I knew about the S4 Minbari/Vorlon tech, I meant the stuff about the Gray Council being worried about the Humans and their tech. I would think the Gray Council would have approved of the decison before they just threw it into the deal. Also every race who signed on with the IA would get that tech so wouldn't they be worried about all of them having it if they didn't approve of it (which they would have had to considering Delenn was offering it)?

I wondered about the caste thing too. I mean I see where he might get that whole 'conform like a good little Minbari' ideaology (i.e. what Sabastian said to Delenn). But even then people gossip, they talk about things their not supposed to, even the Minbari they're not auto-mons(sp?). Also while Valen did construct the Gray Council and the caste system (or did he I thought they already had a caste system before Valen?) or a version of it I thought he affected their social standards more than the construction or military standards. He brought them together but he didn't make them Minbari which is what I got from JH's posts. Apparently one of the novels goes into detail about Sinclair and his standing in Minbari society, which JH told me to read to figure out the whole Valen/Sinclair thing.

I guess so. :D

Doesn't Entil'zha mean the One? Like there's Ranger One who is over the Ranger's but I thought Entil'zha was the embodiment of all the Ranger's aspired to or something. I really can't figure out the significance of Entil'zha vs. Ranger One other than the prophacy thing.

Hell I don't even think Sheridan belived it, I really don't think he's a deep thinker, that one. Of course as JH told me:

[I imagine dying at Z'ha'dum, subsequently being resurrected and knowing that you only have twenty years in which to live a whole lifetime might qualify as a significant religious/philosophical experience... :D]

I guess I'm just being a sensitive bitch, man. Also I feel like I'm being talk down to or something, ah, I don't know. I've been in a bitchy mood all day today. Sorry, but this really just kinda pissed me off. I didn't mean to bring you into it I was just hoping you saw what he was talking about because frankly I'm lost for the most part of his post.

Okay I just *saw* this!

Date: 2006-09-12 12:34 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] oszras.livejournal.com
Also I agree with Delenn being a sphinx. She was death and destruction for the Shadows, also her own world by breaking the council which started a civil war. She also was a guardian for B5 sending warships to protect it and she did represent the King since Sheridan became President of the Interstellar Alliance you could think of him being a King.

The darkness drops again; but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?


This however makes me think of the Twenty year sentance that Lorien gave to Sheridan. And the rocking cradle could be David Sheridan or the Interstellar Alliance since it would still be a newly formed government after twenty years.

The darkness drops again, so twenty years of peace is either fractured or ends for a time. Because of the rocking cradle (i.e. David or the IA) starts a time of unrest or 'nightmare' and we come full circle again to:

And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?


Delenn again has a part to play in this as well. But I won't go into detail most of my speculations come after S5 so I'll stop there. Nothing big or anything so don't spoil yourself! :D

Also just a side note but couldn't Bethlehem represent Minbar?
That actually has nothing to do with S5 but I was wondering what you thought about that.

Re: Okay I just *saw* this!

Date: 2006-09-12 01:06 am (UTC)
ext_18428: (Default)
From: [identity profile] rivendellrose.livejournal.com
Delenn reimagined as a sphinx is one of my favorite images from going over all of this - it really does suit her, doesn't it? Although I also got shivers thinking of that passage applied to Sebastian... not sure which one I prefer, any more.

I hadn't thought of Sheridan's twenty years fitting into this. That's a really intriguing thought, but I think the context doesn't quite fit it, since it refers to "twenty centuries of stony sleep" now ending rather than beginning - that was what made me think JMS would have meant it to refer to the Shadows, coming out of their long sleep. Same goes for the rocking cradle - I think this whole passage is referring to the waking of the anti-Christ (not a subject I'm much qualified to speak on, admittedly, since I have only an outsider's academic knowledge of Christianity)... And as leery as I am of David Sheridan, I think the Shadows are the more likely focus of the passage in terms of B5.

The trickiest thing about this poem, for me, is tracing who/what Yeats is talking about in a given line - every time I read it, I seem to get confused and forget that the last part refers not to the second coming of Christ, but to the anti-Christ. I guess because the earlier imagery is so bestial and judging, I get confused.

Re: Okay I just *saw* this!

Date: 2006-09-12 01:30 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] oszras.livejournal.com
I like both really. And the 'blank pityles gaze' does describe Sebastian to a 'T'. That man was just...ugh. Creepy.

Yes, I can see that now that you mention it. I just saw the word twenty and immidiately thought of Sheridan. But it describes the shadows and their history quite well. But for some reason I thought of the future in that passage, especially in this:

And what rough beast, its hour come round at last

It just made me think of Delenn and her living out her life without Sheridan, it's the 'hour come round at last' that throws me though.

In using with the Shadows it would mean there defeat right? So 'slouching toward Bethlehem to be born', Bethlehem would be their leaving with Lorien and the First Ones to go beyond the Rim, which you could also say they were re-born.

And wow you put up a new layout. Did the other one not work with the tags? Also some of the posts are still in the purple layout mixed in with the new, my eyes didn't know what to settle on first. XD

Re: Okay I just *saw* this!

Date: 2006-09-12 01:44 am (UTC)
ext_18428: (sunflowers)
From: [identity profile] rivendellrose.livejournal.com
He really was sooooo very creepy.

*Nods* It does kind of jar with that, doesn't it? In theory, the "rough beast" is supposed to be appearing in the 'present' of the poem - it's just 'now' moving toward Bethlehem. The "its hour come round at last" means that its (the beast's, in Yeat's meaning the anti-Christ's) time has come... that the time is right for its appearance. Which seems pretty true of the Shadows, who just sort of... wake up, one day. I guess with the arrival of the Icarus, wasn't it? The Icarus being a parable of arrogance leading to destruction, that's pretty appropriate now that I think about it. Rather than defeat, I'm pretty sure this is referring to them waking up.


Yeah, the old layout wouldn't give me a sidebar with my tags, and I really like being able to just pop over and click a link to see everything I've posted on a given subject. Or at least everything that I've tagged on it.

Also some of the posts are still in the purple layout mixed in with the new, my eyes didn't know what to settle on first. XD

Oh fabulous. I wonder how long it'll take for that to sort itself out..... argh.

Re: Okay I just *saw* this!

Date: 2006-09-12 01:58 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] oszras.livejournal.com
I think it was the expressionless face. *shudders*

Yeah, okay. I can totally see that it was the whole past/present tense thing going on that through me. And beast is appropriate for the Shadows, creepy-assed insect beings and their ships were just as horrifiying. Why isn't that if anyone want's to use symbolic or literal figures to represent evil they use spiders or insects. Tolkien did it and many others and, holy Christ-on-a-cracker, I am terrified of insects and have a honest to God phobia about spiders. Can't we have evil kittens? They would be cute *and* evil incarnate. Wouldn't that be scary? Actually when I think about it...Did you ever see 'The Emperor's New Groove'? When the crazy evil woman turns into an evil kitten? See now that was scary. Evil kittens could make an impact with small children and adults alike. Plus I much prefer them to spiders.

...And I'm truly sorry for getting way of topic.

Well, now it has sorted itself out...kinda. All the entries that segue into a lj cut are all different colors but that makes you special!

XD

Re: Okay I just *saw* this!

Date: 2006-09-12 04:24 am (UTC)
ext_18428: (reading kitty)
From: [identity profile] rivendellrose.livejournal.com
Yeah, that was a huge part of it.

Hee. Okay, I actually really loved the Shadow ships, for exactly the same reason - they were frigging creepy. And now... okay, so I live in the basement of our house, right? And we get spiders sometimes, and a lot of times I find dead ones in my room. No big deal, because I'm not terribly scared of them, but now every time I see a dead spider I get this flash in my mind of the Shadow ships. They look like them!!! It's so creepy.

Oh good. I'll have to take a look at the different entries, just to see what it's doing... that's really interesting.

Re: Okay I just *saw* this!

Date: 2006-09-12 05:02 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] oszras.livejournal.com

Okay so now every time I see a spider I'll hear that scream the Shadows ships let out everytime they were in space.

Also you've just made me more phobic about spiders...thanks. XD

Re: Okay I just *saw* this!

Date: 2006-09-12 05:03 pm (UTC)
ext_18428: (harry + clam = <3)
From: [identity profile] rivendellrose.livejournal.com
Oops, sorry about that... I figured if you already had a spider phobia you were probably already seeing it like that!

Re: Okay I just *saw* this!

Date: 2006-09-12 05:30 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] oszras.livejournal.com
No but usually at the time I'm to busy screaming and running around the room like a chicken with my head cut off.

Speaking of acting wanky (i.e. headless chicken) have you seen the XF wank over at Fandom wank? I unfortuantely have people on my f-list who are raging over this. *sigh* Why is it I always have to pick the wankiest fandom's to be in? XD

Re: Okay I just *saw* this!

Date: 2006-09-12 05:57 pm (UTC)
ext_18428: (Default)
From: [identity profile] rivendellrose.livejournal.com
LOL. I'll spare you the many stories I have about spiders.... except the time my roommate and I found a huge one perched on the sleeve of her jacket, righ there in her wardrobe. I kept trying to get it into a cup or something to take it outside (yes, laugh at me - I'm convinced that one cannot kill spiders. Flies, mosquitoes and fleas are all fair game, but I cannot intentionally kill a spider)... and eventually we mutually worked each other into such a panic over it that I had to call a (much more butch) friend over to get it.

Yup, I saw it. *Rolls eyes* Honestly, people are nuts.

Re: Okay I just *saw* this!

Date: 2006-09-12 07:13 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] oszras.livejournal.com
Oh god I'm going to have nightmares about that, just the image of a spider in her closet...Oh God.

Spiders must die. All of them and in horrible ways.

I just stand as far away from them as I can't get and throw things at them until I kill it. And I can't call anyone because everyone else I know would be right there screaming with me. XD
But I have this image of you and your friend freaking out about it and - is it evil of me to snicker a little over that?

It was a blooper reel, that they bought off ebay and distributed to other people. Of course it's gonna end up on the internet. What doesn't right? Anyway I don't know why people are making such a big deal about it.

Well other than the fact that people are nuts. :)

Re: Okay I just *saw* this!

Date: 2006-09-12 08:10 pm (UTC)
ext_18428: (all love is unrequited)
From: [identity profile] rivendellrose.livejournal.com
That one did freak both of us out. Usually I just catch them (hopefully before my cat can) and put them outside. Since I hate other kinds of bugs (like mosquitoes) a lot more, I'm willing to quite happily put up with spiders so long as they aren't in my direct space.

Oh god no - when my friend showed up she laughed and gave me the most dirty "you are such a weenie" look. Thankfully, I seem to gather friends who are less weenie than I am. People who can... you know, change oil, move furniture, open jars. Reach things on high shelves if there isn't furniture around that can be stood on. Things that turn me completely helpless. *Shakes head* I swear, I'm normally a very independent person...

I had a good laugh about that, since I've had most of the XF blooper reels for years. A friend gave them to me after getting them online. Same friend who rescued my roommate and I from the spider, actually. *g*

Re: Okay I just *saw* this!

Date: 2006-09-12 08:34 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] oszras.livejournal.com
You are a very nice person, if I even think there might be a spider close by I freak out.

Oh good, I didn't want to seem heartless. I'm a weenie and I have even weenier friends. :) Well all but one and she lives two states away so not much help there. She's also 6'ft, so yeah no one helps me with the high shelves in my apartment. I just put things all on the lower shelves, I swear it looks like a midigit lives here. :D

They are so mad over at Haven screaming about injustice and all that. I'm torn between shaking my head in a wtf manner or laugh. I laugh because it is quite funny. Also? You have an awesome friend. XD

Re: Okay I just *saw* this!

Date: 2006-09-12 09:09 pm (UTC)
ext_18428: (water pistol)
From: [identity profile] rivendellrose.livejournal.com
I'm a horrible softie with everything except blood-suckers. And flies.

Hell, no, we thought it was hilarious - the (now-former) roommate and I still joke about it, even though this was something like four years ago. I'm lucky, because all but one of my housemates are at least a little bit taller than me, so I can usually get help with tall stuff. And I have no shame about climbing onto chairs or even counters if I need to. ;)

It's funny - I never really noticed that normal houses aren't built for people our size (both my parents are 5'10", and most of my friends growing up were 'average' or above) until I spent time at the house of a highschool friend whose whole family is around our size. All of a sudden, I could reach the top shelf in the kitchen cupboards!

I can imagine. Glad I'm not still associated with that fandom...

And yeah, she rocks. I have a lot of awesome friends. XD

Re: Okay I just *saw* this!

Date: 2006-09-12 09:22 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] oszras.livejournal.com
Flies don't bother me anymore, the time I spent in the Middle East was good for that. They swarm you in some places trying to get into your eyes, nose and mouth. Not so bad here after that.

My dad is 6'3 so it was okay until I got out on my own, I had to reinvent my system. Heh, neither do I.

My father loved to put stuff out of reach of my mother and myself. He didn't do often though. For such a little person (and the fact that she's a teacher) my mother can scare the bejesus out of and me.

I just keep coming back to XF and I don't why the fandom is nuts.

Awesome friends are gold, man. :D

Re: Okay I just *saw* this!

Date: 2006-09-12 10:51 pm (UTC)
ext_18428: (Default)
From: [identity profile] rivendellrose.livejournal.com
o_O Still further proof that I would go absolutely insane out there. Aside from generally being a wimp, I hate flies. And the idea of them anywhere near my face just completely wigs me out.

Holy crap, 6'3"? And to think, my parents joke about not knowing why I'm so short!

It was a great show, but it did attract its fair share of loonies, that's for sure. I was never more than tangentially involved in the fandom... although it was my first experience ever with fanfic, especially of the risque variety. Nearly got myself in trouble for that, reading a story my friend had printed out for me - in class. I was not a terribly clever highschool freshman. :P

Re: Okay I just *saw* this!

Date: 2006-09-12 11:25 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] oszras.livejournal.com
After awhile it didn't bug me anymore, plus I'm an expert at killing flies now, honed my reflexes and all that. :D

My mother just had to give me the gene that makes me short even compared to short people.

The X-Files has some great fanfic, I'm mean the stuff that just makes you sit in awe of the author. Like Penumbra and others. Then you get the rest of the fics that are all 'Foxy-woxy and Dana-boo and their 3.5 children, Skinner and Maggie live right next to them...' *shudders*

Of course CC had to go and actually have a kid who was named William and the whole love letter deal in one of the episodes. Ech.

Wow you brought that stuff to class? Balls man you've got balls. The only time I came close to that was when I brought a Nora Roberts novel to school. One of my teachers said I shouldn't be reading that kind of book, she said it was risque. Since I had been reading her since I was twelve I wasn't impressed I just told her I had left my copy of 'The Fountainhead' at home. She wasn't impressed with my sarcasm.

Re: Okay I just *saw* this!

Date: 2006-09-13 01:19 am (UTC)
ext_18428: (Default)
From: [identity profile] rivendellrose.livejournal.com
Sounds like a good skill to me. :D

I read some good stuff, back in the old days... haven't read XF fic in ages, honestly. But yeah, there's always the creepy scary stuff. I guess there's that in any fandom, though. *Shivers*

I had a lacking concept of reality is what I had. :P I thought it was all tame... largely because it didn't occur to me it'd be otherwise, and hadn't yet learned the concept of "read the damned rating." I excuse myself (slightly) by saying that it was the most boring and useless class in all of highschoool, that it was first period, and that I was fourteen. Not great excuses, but... the best I can do.

...On the other hand, I wrote fanfic in an English seminar in college, so I guess I really haven't grown up all that much after all. Again with the whole boring class, annoying and stupid professor, and first thing in the morning thing. I'm just bad in the mornings, I guess.

Re: Okay I just *saw* this!

Date: 2006-09-13 01:19 am (UTC)
ext_18428: (water pistol)
From: [identity profile] rivendellrose.livejournal.com
Also, the comment about The Fountainhead? Totally rocked.

And you say I'm the one who had balls...

Re: Okay I just *saw* this!

Date: 2006-09-13 07:03 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] oszras.livejournal.com
I remember the the days before I found smut those were innocent days. :) I've read so much smut over the years that now I'll read a gen or character study fic before the smut. That's not to say that I won't pick up smut but I'm a lot more picky now than I used to be.

I understand completely I'm not a morning person either. Because on one hand-boring highschool class, on the other-smut. Smut will always win, because smut is evil like that. :D

Oh but see by writing a fic in a English seminar you were just trying to better your writing and being a better fanfic writer in doing so. You were actually making the fandom better place for all of us. XD

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