the last word

[rivendellrose]

Ack. I just finished the last season of B5. o_O;

Expect commentary to be added to this entry later, and probably a glut of fic to follow. For now, I have one last, triumphant request of my friends who've been around in this fandom longer than I have:

HIT ME WITH ALL THE SPOILERY FIC AND DISCUSSION YOU'VE GOT - I CAN FINALLY READ WITHOUT FEAR!!! :D

Extra points for Lennier, Delenn, Marcus, and Ivanova, of course. And G'Kar. I've missed out on a lot of good G'Kar fic, I'm betting. XD



Number One (Tessa Halloran) is back! I loved her so much - she's so... snarky and droll and ill-tempered. In short, I would probably have developed a crush on her if she'd been around any longer, so I guess I should be grateful she just showed up for this one. Anyway, it was great to see another familiar face.

Now that I've done a bit of the happy, I'm sure everyone who's been reading here can guess what I'm most upset about. I shall give it to you in script form.

Sheridan: *Is stupid and goes to 'help' where he wouldn't know a damned thing about what to do.
Random Ranger: *Wonders what the fuck Sheridan is doing* Umm, sir? This is great, but if you don't hurry, we're both going to die?
Doors: *Close on them*
Lennier: *Runs up, appraises situation*
Sheridan: Push the button!
Lennier: *Looks at button. Looks at Sheridan. Thinks for a moment... DOESN'T DO A DAMNED THING*
* * *
miss_arel: Where did that come from?!
Me: Out of Strasczynski's ass.

Seriously. This is not just me being a Lennier fan. I love the boy; I admit that freely and clearly, and completely acknowledging that he's a total dumbshit sometimes, and definitely has more than a few canonical flaws. But we're talking about the guy who, not three years ago in canon, nearly got himself killed saving Londo, who at the time was behaving pretty much the scum that the universe rubbed off the bottom of its boots. Yes, jealousy is a nasty thing. Yes, I can understand why he'd be pissed off at Sheridan, maybe wouldn't be too damned upset if Sheridan got himself killed, and would certainly love to take the guy's place at Delenn's side. But I have a hard time believing that this is the same character I remember, even from a few episodes ago. And what's with this diary that we all of a sudden find out has all of his secret hatred for Sheridan bottled up in it? Could we maybe have established the existence of said diary just an eensy bit ago, just so that those of us who give a damn aren't sitting there going "what diary? Do Minbari even keep diaries?" Because that was pretty much my thought on the whole thing.

Now I've been worried about Lennier's feelings toward Sheridan (ha, that sounds wrong... but you know what I mean) since the Shal'Fan, or whatever - the pleasure-center-ceremony-thing, anyway. "Woo hoo" and all that. I thought there was a bit of... well, I sure as hell thought he didn't look happy with the situation then. But... manslaughter? Voluntary, look-him-in-the-eyes-and-turn-away manslaughter? No fucking way. Color me a rabid fangirl if you must, I'm having a real hard time with this one.

In reference to earlier discussions oszras and I have had regarding fandom opinions, let me take this time to register that I still can't imagine how someone could twist this into Delenn being inconsiderate or otherwise cruel toward Lennier. She didn't have any choice - had he not left on his own, she would have had to impose consequences for this. And when he did leave, she did her best to call him back and give them the opportunity to talk things over. It was, in the end, his choice - and I approve of that. I also wholeheartedly thank JMS for not squashing any last small hopes I had for the character. I was terrified that the end of "Objects at Rest" would see Lennier nothing more than a cold corpse, and I'm so relieved that he has the opportunity to work on redeeming himself. I can only hope he doesn't fuck it up. He did change his mind after that moment of doubt, he was going back, and I'm determined that his shame and guilt over what happened indicate that the Lennier I knew earlier is still in there, and will be back once he's had a good long time to think, to be alone, and to wander the universe seeking... wisdom. And hopefully a bit of peace.

Oh, in reference to a comment about the sea (and because I just heard through our heat-vent miss_arel commenting on the same scene to nekokoban, I have only one thing to say: Minbari are not the elves. If anyone in this series is/was/ever will be the elves, it was the Vorlons. There is no sea in space. As far as I'm concerned, that line should not have existed. It blew me out of the moment so hard that I covered my head in a blanket and yelled at the TV. Way to go, JMS - you pushed that one too damned hard.

Another sledgehammer moment - the goodbye between Sheridan and Delenn. Believe me when I say that I wanted to like it. I wanted to be touched by this love that has grown on me so much from the first moments of S2, when I thought it was ridiculous for Delenn to have fallen for this dopey guy so quickly that her (new) hair had barely dried out of the coccoon before she started making doe-eyes at him. I've come to love them, adorably spastic couple that they are, and I've even come to love Sheridan (although I'll never stop calling him a dumb puppy, 'cause that's what he is). But that Went Too Far. Congratulations, JMS, once again you have found the line between drama and melodrama, and you have happily tapdanced your way right past it and into the sugary-coated world of 'dear god shut up before you make me sick.' Somebody needs to learn when to keep his mouth the hell shut - if he'd left it at their conversation in bed the previous night, or just part of that conversation in the morning, I would've been fine. And it would have been beautiful. As it was... that was just over the top.

I liked the 'good night,' though. And the actors did the best they could with the lines. I don't mean to pick, I just... geagh. Anyway, go ahead and proceed with stoning me, now.

I liked the end of the station. It felt right to leave it behind, to watch the lights turned out (by JMS himself, no less, it seems), and watch it... well, blown to smithereens. It sounds wrong to say that I liked that. But I did. And I loved the little cut-scene with Sheridan picking up an abandoned, crumpled up newspaper on the abandoned station and tossing it in the trash. He's such a boyscout, and so protective of his station.

Franklin looked like his daddy in the last few scenes, except less angry and less... expanding around the middle. ♥ I should say, I really developed a lot of fondness for Franklin in the last few seasons. Still not nearly so much as other characters (who, believe me, I'll get to in just a moment!), but I very much came to like him. Garibaldi looked cute in the beard, though I couldn't help thinking he was copying Sheridan. And his daughter was so... his daughter.

I continue to be creeped the fuck out by David Sheridan. Maybe if we actually saw him I'd feel better... or maybe that'd make it worse, I don't know. All I know is, he gives me the heebie-jeebies. I mean, they can try as hard as they want to raise him just like any other kid, but he's the son of the president of the interstellar alliance and the head of the rangers. And then... the same two things, only in reverse. I find it hilarious that they traded positions. But hey - that's them to a T, I guess. Anyway, that kid is not going to be normal. And it worries me, a lot. But at least we never had to deal with him. And presumably he somehow got out of having that Keeper attached to his throat. I'm betting Delenn killed it. After all - what was the first piece of advice Sheridan gave his child? Not "believe in yourself," not "I'll always love you no matter what," no... "Listen to your mother, because she's the wisest person I've ever met." (Paraphrased, of course.)

miss_arel as Sheridan: Listen to me, kid. Your mother is always right. You will listen to your mother. You will not ignore your mother's recommendations. Your mother is God. *Long pause* Sorry, Ivanova.

(A moment of seriousness - that speech made me all weepy. If I listed all the points in the last three episodes that made me weepy, I'd be here all night. But that one definitely did. Doesn't mean I didn't laugh my head off when miss_arel said that.)

Vir has become Londo. Only... well, less boisterous, less obnoxious, less cheery. But still - Londo. ♥ He's all growed up. And somewhere, I am convinced that Lennier by this point was no less grown up. (Hush, I know Morden said he would die soon after, but that was Morden. If the devil himself can't be lying to serve his purposes, then what's the fun of anything? Besides, 'soon' by his marker could be... any amount of time. *Plugs ears and refuses to think of any other answers*)

And of course, Susan. She's back! I was so happy to hear that grumpy, growly voice reaming a new level of Earth bureaucracy. ♥ I loved her and Delenn finally showing a little of that friendship we know they must have developed, I loved her taking over the Rangers, I loved the cut bit with her taking two things from her office full of awards and honors - Marcus' denn'bok (which I notice had a very prominent place on her wall)... and her fighter helmet. Oh, that's our Ivanova. How much I love her.

(My last words on the subject of Marcus:

"Cryonic Suspension Chamber"
"Subject: MARCUS COLE"
"Designation: Ranger"
"Status: Deceased"
"Comments: Indefinite Hold"
"In the event of new resuscitation technology"
"Requested by: Cmdr. S. Ivanova"

*Joy* We watched the little 'data file' Easter egg about him, and it was a total loss aside from two things - Patricia Tallman giggling and being silly about Marcus, and, of course, Jason Carter. "So... am I dead?" ♥

Oh yeah, and I was really kind of irritated about Lorien showing up to escort Sheridan away. I wanted it to be Kosh. Yeah, I know Kosh is dead... but he's Kosh for god's sake! I wanted to see Kosh as Sheridan's daddy one last time. But no, creepy-ass Lorien. At least Byron didn't make any last minute appearances. :P

And the last little documentary ending? Totally rocked. ♥ Very nice way of bringing things to a close. It's been one hell of a four-month ride. Thanks to all of you who got this far, for putting up with my rambling, encouraging me, freaking out with me, and occasionally poking me mercilessly about whatever I happened to be panicking about at a given moment (*eyes spazzychic*) Much love. It was a blast going through all of it with you. ♥

Comments

[cyranocyrano.livejournal.com]

Don't forget Crusade. (:

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

*Laughs* Ohhh, no. If I see anything past this, it'll be "In the Beginning." And I'm not even sure that I'm going to go for that one. ;)

[aris-tgd.livejournal.com]

As a random lurker who's here from universe_today, I have to recommend In the Beginning. If only for Londo's speech about the middle of the war and the setup for the Battle of the Line. It's one of the few pieces of cinema that always makes me weepy when I see it.

... Also, I have a soft spot for Crusade, but that's me. ;)

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

Whoops, I'm sorry - I must've missed the notification for this comment! I definitely mean to track down "In the Beginning" at some point... but I'll probably take a little break beforehand, just to absorb the five main seasons. I went through all of it so fast, I feel like I'm still piecing it all together!

[theladyfeylene.livejournal.com]

Wow, finally done! Congrats! :D

I'd rec you fic, but almost everything I read/write isn't really stuff I think you'd be interested in, based on your opinions of the season five telepath arc. That's, well, pretty much all I write/read about. Or it's got spoilers for the EU, and I don't know how you feel about that.

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

Thank you! :D It's kind of a numbed feeling... I'm glad I have S4, because I have a horrible feeling I'm going to go into withdrawals at some point in the near future.

I'd be interested in seeing a few things you recommend, still. It's kind of a... I like the idea of the arc, I just couldn't get around wanting to strangle Byron where he stood every minute that he was on-screen. And that colored the whole arc, I guess. Plus, I could never quite seem to get comfortable with Lyta, for reasons I have yet to figure out. Sometimes that kind of stuff works out better for me in text, though.

I'm... fairly sure I'm not concerned with spoilers beyond this, unless you really recommend avoiding them - I have no idea when or if I'll get around to the movies, or whether I'll be able to find/read the novels. So at this point, I'm ready to call it fair season. ;)

[theladyfeylene.livejournal.com]

Hehehehe!

Heh, yeah that's the thing. Byron's pretty much one of my favorite characters, so most of my favorite stuff focuses on him or him and his relationship with Lyta. And I know you can't stand him. And Lyta is definitely my favorite female character on the series, so a lot of stuff I really like focuses on her. Uh... I do have a Zack/Lyta piece that takes place in the future, Like Ashes We Scatter. Not too many spoilers, since it's vaguely AU and ignores one of the movies and a good chunk of the novels. It does have massive spoilers for what happens to Bester after the end of the series, though, if that concerns you at all. Bittersweet and I'm pretty proud of it.

For humor, there's a multi-part fic I'm working on that has spoilers up the wazoo for the Centauri Prime novels, but I tried to fill in details so anyone who hadn't read them wouldn't be too lost. That's A Bride For Zack Part I, and focuses on Zack and Vir. As close to crack as I'm capable of writing.

I'm pretty sure you wouldn't be interested Byron/Zack fic. :D

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

Whoops. Color me embarassed for unintentionally ragging all over your favorite character - I try to be at least a little discreet if I end up disliking a character I know a friend likes. o_O Sorry if I offended!

I'll definitely take a look at the two you mentioned - I find Lyta intriguing as a character, I could just never quite get a handle on whether I liked or disliked the way her arc developed. And anything with Vir amuses me - I remember seeing that latter fic when you posted it the other day, and I'd meant to make a note of it so I could go back once I'd finished the series. So yay!

...Oh, strange mental images. Strange and slightly terrifying. ;)

[theladyfeylene.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I figured you'd forgotten me mentioning it and the stories I told you about meeting/hanging out with the actor. :D And who was I to get in the way of your Byron induced rage? ;)

I loved Lyta's story arc, honestly. I don't think she ever did quite recover from finding out what she really was, and her channeling all that rage and frustration and hurt into trying to fix it made sense to me. And I loved the EU stuff with her and G'kar. Yeah, I had fun with that one. A friend of mine and I got off onto this whacky tangent about female Centauri, and the fic was born!

Yeah, very strange and twisted. But fun! Shall I not mention the Bester/Byron? Or the Bester/Lyta?

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

Lol. Yeah, wow, that totally slipped my mind. Must've gotten buried under the story about Claudia Christian. ;)

I love the arc (impossible not to, seeing her go from the girl everybody squashes to this... creature of nearly-infinite power), I just never figured out whether I loved her or not. If that makes any sense at all. It's one of those... she's fascinating, I could just never figure out whether I liked her as a person rather than as a character concept, I guess - that's the best way I can think of describing it.

(Holy crap, my cat is such a bastard. He was trying to climb up onto the highest shelf in my bedroom, because I'm finally reorganizing and getting things cleaned in here, and then when I yelled at him for that he started trying climb the wall to trash one of my posters. ARGH.)

...Is it bad that Bester/Lyta makes a sick kind of sense to me? And please, the Bester/Byron was so canon - Bester was totally bad-touching him while he was bargaining with Lochley for his extradition. ;)

[theladyfeylene.livejournal.com]

Or the being glomped by Marcus or the sitting in Lennier's lap. ;) I've got to show you those pictures sometime...

I adored her. I don't know, just something about her. She was able to find her own footing and come into herself in such an amazing way, and just take charge of her life after so long of having so little control. So, yeah, I see where you are coming from, even if I do love her as both concept and character.

(He is an evil little sucker. He just wants attention!)

It does make sense, on a lot of levels, honestly. Ha!

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

You know, I'd forgotten about the Jason Carter thing. Now I'm really jealous. XD And yes, you really really do.

*Nods* Totally awesome character arc.

(He is, and he does.)

It's hard to think of a lot that doesn't make sense when it comes to Bester, as long as it can be reasonably tied to getting what he wants out of a situation. He strikes me as an "any means necessary" kind of guy.

[alicamel.livejournal.com]

Excuse me for jumping in but: SOMEONE ELSE SEES ZACK/BYRON???! *eeeeeeee!*

You just made me jump wildly out of my chair. I have been trying to convince people of this fic since B5 aired! And there's FIC! *goes to find*

You made my day! *squees at you*

[windrose.livejournal.com]

And now you know why Bill Mumy was so upset over what happened to Lennier that he actually tried to argue JMS out of doing it. A lot of fans have trouble with that scene. I remember thinking "No. No way in hell." when it first aired, and it--well, didn't exactly please me, but made me feel better at any rate when I found out that even the actor had serious issues with it.

JMS is good, and that just makes the places where he fumbles even more painful. And Lennier deciding to let Sheridan die was a big fumble. Had I written it, I might have had him hesitate and then help Sheridan anyway, and then have his leaving be based upon his guilt over that hesitation and the knowledge that his love of Delenn had turned into something unhealthy.

Also? I think the diary was handwaving on JMS's part because even he knew that this was out of character for Lennier. It felt so ... tacked on, as a lame way of explaining a very poor storytelling decision.

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that... oh, that poor man. That's such a horrible thing for an actor, to have your character pulled in a direction that you just totally disagree with.

He totally could have done that, and it would have had almost the exact same emotional impact for the characters (not quite, but... close enough, and it wouldn't have been so blatantly out of character!), so all I can think is that he was trying to make a point with this. In the beginning of the series, I guess no one is really all that surprised to see Londo's fall because... well, he's not the greatest guy to begin with, is he? So no shock that he'd get sucked into bad things. But Lennier... I guess we're supposed to take it as a sign of how even the most virtuous can fall, and fall completely?

It was, it totally felt like JMS pulling strings to convince people, or explain away the shock. It's not like we didn't know that he had those feelings! It's just that I could never once have imagined him acting on them.

[wakwaha.livejournal.com]

Hi! I've been following your episode commentaries from the link from universe_today, and I've really enjoyed them.

Congrats (or maybe condolences, as there's not much more b5 to watch ;_;) on finishing. I found it hard to watch season 5, as I missed Ivanova horribly.

I know what you mean about Number One. She's really great with her scowling and all and I love seeing her and Franklin together. Somehow they just balance each other out really well. I do like the idea of her being head of intelligence, too.

The Lennier disaster is really pretty hard for me to watch. On the one hand, I can maybe accept a sort of temporary madness caused by unrequited love on Lennier's part, but, as you said, when you bring up the fact that he even saved Londo without hesitation, it doesn't really seem in character for him. I guess you could say that maybe he has more personal anger towards Sheridan than towards Londo, but still. I just can't believe he'd do it. It also, oddly, makes me angry at Sheridan, because he seems to show a marked lack of sensitivity where Lennier is concerned. The look he gives Lennier after Lennier comes back to help Sheridan is very upsetting. Poor Lennier.

Objects at Rest and Sleeping in Light are what I like best about the otherwise upsetting season 5. I absolutely love the moment in Objects at Rest where Sheridan and Delenn salute the new command staff. The story begins again.

Sleeping in Light is one of my all-time favorite episodes, with the exception of the saccharine moments between Sheridan and Delenn. It's just too much. The dinner party I love very much. It's really good to see everyone as their older selves. It gives the series a real sense of continuity or reality (everyone gets old eventually). Emperor Vir is just so cute! And you're right; it's like he's all grown up. He seems comfortable with himself in a way that he never was before. Also, the story about Londo and the pak'ma'rah is wonderful. I also really was glad to hear Ivanova name Marcus; I liked how the others seemed surprised at hearing her finally say his name, but I liked how it seemed right.

There's just so much I could go on and on about as regards this episode, but I think my favorite part is the voiceover narration by Ivanova. I missed her so much, and she really, I think, sums up the tenor of the series in those few sentences. In a lot of ways, she's the heart of the show in that she expresses the feelings of those who are watching. This episode is really something in that it's so sad, but at the same time, it's a hopeful kind of sadness. It really feels like, despite all of the sadness, there's still hope.

Plus, who couldn't like an episode where, by the end, Delenn and Ivanova are essentially ruling the known galaxy? ;)

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

Hi! I've been following your episode commentaries from the link from universe_today, and I've really enjoyed them

Wow, I had no idea I'd gotten linked over there. I'm glad you enjoyed my random blatherings!

I know exactly what you mean about missing Ivanova - way back when I first started the series, a friend (very gently) broke the news to me that she wasn't going to be in S5... and I remember telling her "that's fine then - I'll just stop with S4." I'm glad I didn't... but I was even more glad to see her come back. ;)

It also, oddly, makes me angry at Sheridan, because he seems to show a marked lack of sensitivity where Lennier is concerned.

Oh yes. I had a pretty good run of being consistently angry at Sheridan any time he and Lennier were in the same room, because he seemed so completely oblivious to how much Delenn meant to Lennier and vice versa. That's another contradiction here in S5 - all of a sudden, Delenn has to go behind his back to send Lennier into danger because Sheridan won't do it, knowing how she cares about him... when, less than a year before, he'd tried to dissuade Delenn from going into a bad spot by saying "It'll be dangerous... can't you just send Lennier?" So many things Sheridan has done and said in the context of that relationship rubbed me the wrong way. In this case, I can understand him being mad at Lennier, but... I guess I always come out on Lennier's side almost no matter what happens. He's certainly not always right by a long stretch, and I've been angry with him several times in S5, but I do feel like the poor boy gets the short end of almost every stick.

The beginning of the new chapter for the station really is a wonderful image - I love the thought of all those stories in between what we saw there and the station being decommissioned 20 years later. So many possibilities.

The dinner party was one of my favorite parts, too, especially the toast to missing friends. By the time it got around to Ivanova stepping in to say Marcus' name, I was already getting choked up, and that just put me over the edge. I was so relieved to see that she still remembered him, and was finally ready to admit it to everyone - I love the two of them.

That ending narration really was perfect, particularly being from Ivanova's point of view and in her voice. I can't remember exact numbers or episodes to back this up, but I'm fairly sure that she, Delenn, and G'Kar have done most of the narration for the series (and a good choice on that, since I think those three are also the best actors in terms of voice control and oration), and of all of those Susan is the human perspective, the voice, as you said, of the audience and the impressions we're meant to have of things. She's the one who carries it all on for us, and the one who has the most to go toward in terms of hope and new beginnings.

...I hadn't thought of it that way. You're right - this episode is officially perfect when viewed from that perspective. Now that's a universe I'd like to live in. ;)

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

Whoops, I'm sorry to double-comment, but I forgot to ask... do you happen to know the name of the artist who did the painting in your icon? I've seen his/her work on the cover of a few novels (I think yours is from Juniper?), but I can never remember the name!

[wakwaha.livejournal.com]

Yes, this painting is from the cover of Juniper, and the artists are Leo and Diane Dillon.

I had also forgotten that I wanted to post some links to some fic, as you mentioned you were looking for some. It's pretty much all Ivanova-centric, since she's my favorite. I wish I could recommend some Lennier fic to you, but I haven't read too much with him in it. These three are a few of my favorites.

Skuka, Holod, i Granit by not jenny

A not entirely linear story from Ivanova's perspective as she tries to deal with Marcus. With quotations from Anna Karenina. It's hard to explain, but totally worth the read.

Chasing the Light by Elanor Gamgee

Ivanova seizes the chance to change what went wrong for her in the past, with disturbing consequences. This one's kind of creepy and is definitely thought-provoking.

Once Upon a Legend by Anla'shok Ivanova

Ivanova reflects upon the events of Sleeping in Light as she assumes her new post as head of the Rangers. This story has a great Ivanova voice; I can almost hear her saying the words.

Hope at least one of these works for you. :)

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

Oh, thank you! I just read "Once Upon a Legend," and it's wonderful. I can't wait to go through the others!

[jfrog78.livejournal.com]

There are still the movies that fill in some gaps and the last movie makes way for crusade and tells more about it.

With the weepy I am with you. The last episode though I did not find as much melodrama because I want that. I want that intensity of feeling to overtake me. Since I am good with getting into what I am watching those scenses took me away. It was hard to watch the last episode with the commentary because I knew what was being said. Also it was nice to hear how parts of the episode even made JMS weepy himself.

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

True, true, although I've heard iffy reviews of most of the movies, and I'd rather avoid anything that might... mess up my fond memories of the series as it is.

I want to be swept away by the drama, but sometimes the writers (or actors, or both) just take it too far, and I slip right out of the suspension of disbelief and into the mode of somebody who's done a bit of both writing and acting, as well as analyzing both from an academic standpoint. I hate being pulled out of the moment too soon.

[nolivingman.livejournal.com]

I didn't have a big problem believing Lennier would do that, but I think it's because I really believed that saying "I love you" to Delenn and then living would have changed him, made him desperate. When they are saved, he kind of crumples, and I figure he just felt trapped from that point on. Unrequited love is so much easier when it's also unspoken; once you've made the statement, there's just nowhere to go with it.

I really came to like Franklin too. I was surprised by it, because the first two seasons he just bugged me, but by the fifth his self-righteousness was kind of endearing.

I find it hilarious that they traded positions. But hey - that's them to a T, I guess.

Yeah, they seem a little overly dynastic to me - even when Delenn asked Susan to be head of the Rangers it was kind of iffy in that way. Though I know she'll do a kick-ass job at it, of course, maybe there should be room at the top for somebody not in this tiny little group of friends.

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

That's an good way of looking at the progression of Lennier's character this season - he does seem to have been increasingly trapped, even as he tried more and more ways to get out of the situation. In some ways, I found his admission at the beginning of the season (fumbling though it was, and I can't recall the exact words) to be more surprising than admitting his love. Loving someone is one thing, but his earlier statement was a clear indication that he wanted, and even in some way expected, something more in return than what he was getting. That's the big step, to my mind - not telling the person you love them, but telling him that you have intentions of actually pursuing that love. Everything else he did in this season was colored by that, in my mind.

Symbolically, though, saying "I love you," really is the last straw, so you're probably right on that interpretation. I can't help thinking things might have worked out differently if Delenn had left it in the open between them, rather than pulling her little 'it never happened' thing... but she did the best she could, and it makes sense from a Minbari perspective.

It is very dynastic, isn't it? Sheridan had already chosen his own successor for the station, Garibaldi and Franklin pick the next intelligence officer, Franklin picks his successor in Medbay... some of them make sense, but the overall pattern leaves us wondering if that's how politics and the military work in this world. The thing that disturbed me the most is that... of course Susan will do wonderfully, but she's not even a Ranger! Of course, neither was Sinclair when he disappeared and became Entil'zha, and neither was Delenn, so maybe that's not a requirement. It seems odd, though, with how devoted they are to such strict training. To have leaders who haven't had that training strikes me as a strange proposition.

[nolivingman.livejournal.com]

That early-season confession was very interesting to me too. He says something about "You don't need me now; you have Sheridan." and I remember thinking at the time that that statement was very telling - he considered his place in Delenn's heart to be similar to John's. It seemed to me that he thought Sheridan had taken his place as Delenn's mate or something.

I really agree that Delenn made things worst with her "Oh it was nothing" thing. Saying to him: "Look, you know I love John, right?" might have seemed meaner, but would have been kinder in the end.

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

I think (and I could be totally off on this, obviously) that line was less mean to indicate that he'd assumed his place was equal to that of her mate, but more that he had, in a very real way, been her... 'helpmeet' is the best word I can think of. And now Sheridan is obviously taking that place, fulfilling, in Lennier's mind at least, everything she needs. Sheridan takes up so much space in her life and heart that there's no more need for Lennier, particularly with the war over.

As far as I'm concerned, of course, he's wrong about that. But I can easily see how he'd perceive it that way.

Exactly. I was waiting all this season for Delenn to sit Lennier down and explain very firmly that she loves Sheridan, that nothing is going to change that, but that she also cares very deepy for him as well - that those feelings not being the same didn't at all mean they weren't equally important to her. That was the conversation that, for me, was really missing here... and I think it might've done some good in pushing Lennier off the destructive path he'd gotten onto.

[eye-of-a-cat.livejournal.com]

Eep, you finished the series while I was away! I feel like first-time watchers deserve a support group for the dealing with the the sadness that is the ending of S5... still, it looks like you had enough of one here! So, belated (and still hurried, sorry) response:

- Lennier's diary. Yes. Argh.

- As for what he did to Sheridan - my own not-quite-canon-twisting justification for this is that, while we only get this mentioned once, Lennier did say he had family killed on the Black Star that Sheridan blew up - and Lennier had to have been quite young during the war, and Minbar was probably a very angry and xenophobic place to be growing up in then, and at some level that's still in his mind.

- omgMarcus. I'll admit that the first time round I was still hoping for some kind of last-minute rescuscitation (see: 99% of all the I/M fic out there), but it was much, much more effective this way.

- and on a more fun level, the first time I saw the episode with Delenn's "Bastards!" line, the TV channel edited it out - so you got Sheridan and Franklin's stunned reaction to Delenn walking into the room. This puzzled me for quite some time.

- Lennier not being dead - yes, exactly! I was less upset by Objects at Rest than I could have been, just because he didn't actually die in it and I was so convinced he was going to. And in a way - I say this after much grumbling about it for years later on, but in a way - it is a good ending for him, with a chance both for redemption and a storyline of his own that doesn't centre on Delenn.

- Recs on stuff (mostly Lennier-based): Sabine's fic Education is Lennier after S5, and most of deborah_judge's fic is set then too: Varieties of Repentance, The Candle and the Star, and Third Rituals (part 1, 2, 3 and 4 are parts of the same series, A Question, With Answers is an AU for a scene in Darkness on the Abyss, and, well, pretty much all of her stuff's worth a look, especially the meta on Lennier here. ) There's more - but I'll return once I've combed through my bookmarks!

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

There should be a support group! I had a lot of wonderful folks here, but I'm glad you're back - there are definitely some things that only another obsessive Lennier fan could understand. ;)

You're probably right on about the Black Star idea - even at the best of times, I felt like Lennier regarded Sheridan as, at best, sort of a bumbling and rather violent barbarian. Early on, I was surprised that he took to their courtship as well as he did, given that... which made it seem strange to me that he'd choose this moment to panic about it. But that's opportunity for you, I suppose... everything just fell into place and for a moment, he doubted.

I am so glad to know that I wasn't the only one who thought Marcus might be revived in the last episode. Yeah, okay, the episode was filmed at the end of 4, so it makes sense they'd mention him, but still! And I know what you mean about the 99% of I/M fic. I've been tempted to do the same thing, but I've been trying to restrain myself unless I can find a unique way of handling it... which is pretty damned tricky.

Oh no! What a silly censor - that'd be so confusing, having them react like that.

It is good for him to get out, to have a life without Delenn at the center of everything. I just worry about the poor guy... and about Delenn, as it's pretty clear in Sleeping in Light that she's still (20 years later!) terribly hurt by his absence. I was so stupidly relieved by that; seeing how much she missed him made me feel a lot better about the whole deal, if that makes any sense. And the first fic you linked to, 'Education,' does such a wonderful job of giving him exactly that progress and growth that he needs... Thanks so much for the recommendations; I can't wait to get to the rest of them!