identification vs. attraction

[rivendellrose]

Question for those of you who are bisexual (or who otherwise might have interest in this... I'm not sure if it's an issue only bisexuals have, or only confused bisexuals, or only confused people.... yeah):

Do you ever get confused about whether you're identifying with a character, attracted to them, or both? Or perhaps I should say, do you find yourself thinking about whether you identify with a character, are attracted to them, or both, and/or do you find yourself assuming that you can't do both?

...It might just be me. But it's been bothering me for a while (as well as bothering me that it bothers me, which is... strange), so... thought I'd poll the population via LJ. *^.^*

ETA: I'm interested in identification and/or attraction to either gender, here, for the sake of clarity. It's fairly rare for me to identify strongly with male characters (at least I think it is? I may have to consider this more carefully...), but I understand that's different for a lot of people!

Comments

[babel.livejournal.com]

I tend to be attracted to characters I identify with. I can't think of any time I wasn't. Which, I suppose is weird now that I think of it, but it's always seemed normal to me.

Then again, though I am bisexual, I usually identify with men, and I suspect you mean identifying with the same sex.

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

I tend to also, but it only recently occurred to me, because there are also a number of (male) characters that I find attractive that I don't identify with. And a smaller number of female characters that I identify with but don't find attractive.

...Now that I think about it, I think this seemed a lot more normal before I realized I was bi. *Headdesk* Back then, I just assumed I was identifying with or aspiring to be female characters, as opposed to just being attracted to them.

That's interesting - although I typically identify with women, I've had it happen occasionally that I manage to identify with a man and also find him attractive, and it always kind of weirds me out. Maybe because my gender image has always been so solidly on the female side...

[pussreboots.livejournal.com]

I usually find identifying with male characters than female characters easier. I am usually not attracted to these characters (the exceptions being Jim DiGriz and James Bond). Female characters usually annoy me.

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

Female characters usually annoy me.

I have to admit, I always find it disturbing when people say that. I mean, yes, there's a lot of portrayals of women in various mediums that completely suck and are obnoxious as all hell, but... there's also a lot of obnoxious male characters out there. And I think portrayals of women have, as a whole and particularly in SF/F, gotten a who hell of a lot better in the last twenty years or so. For me, I see the majority of female characters (again, in SF/F predominantly) being portrayed pretty much just as people who happen to be female, which I think is how it should be... so I really don't see how it's possible to be dislike or be annoyed by the whole gender in fiction. Would you mind explaining or clarifying at all? I see this kind of sentiment often enough that I'd really like to understand it better.

[niwatorimegami.livejournal.com]

I think I identify and am attracted to characters by turns. There'll be days when I find a certain character attractive, and days where I examine that character and find that it might just be me identifying with them. And on the whole, I tend to identify AND be attracted to male characters more than female characters, but when I notice a female character it's usually because I find them attractive, not because I identify with them. Does that make sense?

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

...I'm beginning to think I'm the only person on the internet who most frequently identifies with female characters, regardless of attraction. Wow. Perhaps I should have expected this, but... I still find it surprising. o_O

What you say about attraction versus identification, hwoever, definitely makes sense to me. I'm not sure why it never occurred to me that it could be normal for it to work that way, because that's very much how my mind works.

[windrose.livejournal.com]

I tend to identify with and be attracted to characters of either gender. And the gender really is incidental, as far as I'm concerned. Just like in real life, I am drawn to the person, not their plumbing.

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

*Nods* That's always the way I've felt about it, but I realized a while ago that I get kind of freaked out when I realize that I both identify with and an attracted to a particular character. Particularly if said character is female. It's as though that makes the whole thing narcissistic, or somehow otherwise screwed up. I'm realizing that this isn't the case, but it always kind of tweaks my brain when I think about it.

[onefishjyuufish.livejournal.com]

I find that I identify with more male characters than female, mostly because it's a certain type that identify with and that type tends to crop up more with guys than girls (that I've noticed anyway), because I think it might be a more masculine mindset (specifically the outwardly snarky/quippy guys with a side of arrogance or bravado that masks a fragile heart and oh my god does that sound emo when I type it out).

I do tend to be attracted to that type as well, but it's never really bothered me. Though I think it may be that I'm attracted at least somewhat because I identify with them as well.

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

It does sound very emo, but also cute. ;) Odd, though - when I think of that type, I mostly think of women who embody it, and it takes a minute for me to remember that, oh yeah, there's a lot of guys like that, too. *g*

I think I just think too much - that would hardly be any kind of surprise with this sort of thing. Yay for getting caught up in "but what if..."

[hoperomantic.livejournal.com]

Ummm, kinda? I mean, just in odd little things like: when I write fanfiction, I seem to be more likely to write from the guy's thoughts, or guess, you might say perpective. I mean, I'm certain that I don't really get it right, but that's where I'm more inclined to go. For example, with Liz and John(SGA) I'm more likely to write from the general pov of John. And now that I think of it, all three of my BSG ficlits are from the general persepective of Adama... *shrug* Does that help any? I've never really thought of it, soooo...

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

That does help, in a way, in that I've seen that a lot in fandom, but never quite been able to understand why it seems to be the most common thing. I mean... most fic-writers are women, right? So it seems strange to me that most of tend to write from the male perspective, I guess, even when there are female characters at the center of the story.

In one way, I think it's good - it's getting past the notion that women can only write women, men can only write men, etc. Which is important. But I wonder if it doesn't also lead to (or stem from?) women disdaining the female perspective in fiction, which strikes me as dangerous.

...Not you specifically, I should say - I write a little heavy on the female side, probably, so it's probably good that there are people out there balancing me out! It's just interesting to me, in a trend sort of sense.

[wordsaremyfaith.livejournal.com]

Sometimes I am doing both (identifying and being attracted) and then I wonder if I have some sort of weird narcissism issues that I'm unaware of.

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

&$#@@%$#^%#@ YES.

Okay, so I'm not the only weirdo in the world who has had this cross her mind - I'm relieved! I was beginning to think I was crazy for thinking I was crazy. ;)

And your icon? Yes. Very much yes.

[spazzychic.livejournal.com]

Identification and attraction are close. In books, the thing one has to go on is their personality. The appearance has some guidelines but the rest can be filled in by the reader. Television shows have many more set rules, but most of the decent shows out there still spend more time on character development rather than looks. There are some characters that I strongly identify with but are not attracted to (Kaylee, Azure from Wayfarer Redemption, can'tthinkofaguyrightnow), and there are some that are attractive but I don't identify with them much (Jayne and Buffy come to mind). And then there's Willow, who I am waiting patiently to come out of the TV and make sensuous witchy love to me...oh and uh, I identify with her also. :)

Some characters are made to be attractive, and yeah, it works.

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

On the identify-but-not-attracted-to angle, I mostly find myself thinking of River. She's lovely, but my brain kind of goes "bleh!" if I try to think of her in a sexual situation... unless I'm writing from her POV, in which one case it worked. But that was unique. I could probably work myself up to identifying closely with a sea-sponge if it meant a plausible situation for writing sex with Zoe.

...Umm. Anyway. XD

Interesting you should mention Willow in this case - I've got the River-ish thing going with her, too - I like her, very much identify with her (umm... dorky geek girl? hello self...), but so far, no significant attraction. We'll see how that changes over the series...

I'm glad this makes sense to you - I'd got into my head at some point that it had to be somewhat neurotic/narcissistic to be attracted to the same characters one identifies with (at least with same-sex attraction). Ah, neuroses...

[aris-tgd.livejournal.com]

I'm mostly straight, but I find myself identifying with and finding attractive the same character all the time. Both genders. *shrug* And I mostly find the 'identification' kicks in when I do writing (or just scenecrafting) from the POV, which has led me to digging around in the heads of some very strange people.

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

Ah, writing... the key to identifying with all sorts of weird characters. ;)

Anyway, I'm glad it's not just me!

[lacrimaeveneris.livejournal.com]

For me, it tends to be both, and gender tends to be an incidental matter rather than a key point in it. Maybe I'm just really egocentric or something, but I find I can identify & be attracted at the same time.

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

That's essentially what I've always ended up with, I just tend to be more neurotic about it. If I catch myself being attracted to a character who's too overtly like me, I get paranoid about what that means about my mind. Totally silly, but there you are.

[moonvoyager.livejournal.com]

I get even more mixed up because in addition to being bisexual, I'm FTM. I usually identify more with male characters, in part because most of the female characters on TV are het & I am not that interested in putting myself in a position where I am a woman being attracted to a man. I love Willow & can both identify with & be attracted to her; but that's somewhat rare for me. Most of the men that I identify with are not ones I would have said I was attracted to (Marcus might be the only exception--it's a pretty rare situation for me, but I find myself alternately in his or Ivanova's head). Weirdly, I identified with Ivanova more before Marcus entered the picture...though I guess I've explained that above. As far as slash...I would far rather be a man with another man, than a woman with a man. Of course, more than that, I'd rather be either gender with a woman (particularly really interesting characters like Tara & Willow). And there just aren't enough of those characters on TV. My headspace is usually terribly confusing even to me. (To be with a man I have to imagine myself male even more than I might normally be doing with a woman.) So I'm probably not the type of example you're looking for...

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

Whoops, sorry that took a while - I got a little behind on comments!

I was really looking for every kind of example, so I'm glad you replied! I figure that being bisexual and very much on the feminine side of female, I had a skewed vision of the whole thing... so I wanted to get the picture from as many of my friends as possible, to see how far of an outlier I seemed to be, and to get a more general picture of how people negotiate the whole concept. (Even when I'm out of college and unemployed, I'm still an anthropologist at heart. ♥) I've also found Marcus and Ivanova a rare situation, but for me it's because I'd been absolutely thrilled to find a female character I was definitely attracted to, who had canonical relationships with women... and yet when Marcus came along, I was thrilled because I found him attractive, too.

To be with a man I have to imagine myself male even more than I might normally be doing with a woman.

I think I get what you mean on this one, in a completely backwards kind of way. I tend to feel like I need to be more feminine with other women than I do with men. It's confusing.

And thank you very much for the exercise you sent! I think it's going to be really helpful.

[sister-ananke.livejournal.com]

I've been reading a certain series (Lois McMaster Bujold's Vorkosigan series) for a while now (from the time I was about 13, so about 12 years) and I've found my identification/attraction schema changes.

Originally: attraction to Miles, secondary attraction to Elena, Elli and Taura, identification with Taura.

First change: attraction to Miles and Taura, identification with Cordelia (Miles' mother)

Now: identification to Miles and Cordelia, attraction still to Miles.

Part of that has been growing up, part has been becoming firmer in my own skin, while also sustaining enough damage to partially cripple me.

As far as well-known fandoms go - identify with Snape, attracted to Lupin. Partially because the Fanon dynamic mirrors my own relationship, but also because there are just no dark, tortured yet essentially good women in many fandoms. Women never have the luxury of playing their own game - they're either good, bad or on a 'journey' between with the help of some man. Snape's trope doesn't get played by women - that kind of self-sacrifice is seen as a masculine thing (women can die, but the ongoing payment Snape goes through is just not seen in female characters). It's strange - I should identify with Hermione (smart, bookish, shy) but her ethical ideals clash, not to mention putting up with Harry's moping.

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

Wow, I got a little behind in my replies to this entry - my apologies for the delay!

I can't speak directly to the Bujold series (though I've heard fabulous things about her as a writer - must make sure to put her on my list to check into!), but what you've said about identification and attractive over time definitely strikes a chord. Long-term fan-attachment seems to be a great way to chart changing interests and attractions.

[T]here are just no dark, tortured yet essentially good women in many fandoms.

Excellent point, and now that you mention it I'm struggling to come up with counterargument characters... and pretty much failing completely. There just plain aren't many female anti-heroes, or morally ambiguous characters on a journey of redemption (two of the major types that either fit or approach Snape's character - I'm stretching the 'anti-hero' bit a little, but that's how he's often played in fandom, I think).

And I'm right there with you on Hermione - I do identify with her to an extent, but there's another level on which she's just a little too 'there for the benefit of Harry and Ron' for me. Doing their homework for them? Please. Find some friends with brains and get out of that trap.

[sabonasi.livejournal.com]

There's not really an issue with men, but when it comes to female characters, I tend to be weary of my attractions. Because beauty has not always been a trait practically mandatory for female characters, but because it's so often presented as the most important - if not hte only - trait. Thus, I'm hesitant to add to the further objectification of female characters.

As a result, I tend to be attracted to female characters who are first and foremost strong female characters (and who I thus identify with): Juliet and Ana Lucia from Lost, Eden from Heroes, Starbuck and Caprica Six from Battlestar Galactica, Andrea and Rita from Day Break and so on.

After all, while there might be fanservice for both male and female characters on a show, it all too often feels like only the female characters are presented not as attractive people but as attractive parts - breasts, legs, asses.

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

These are some really interesting points you're raising, particularly regarding the objectification of women compared to the objectification of men, and the degree to which female characters are 'just a pretty face.' I wonder if we don't have that latter impression in part because, as you pointed out, it's mandatory for a woman to be attractive in a way that it's not mandatory for men. Male characters can get away with being attractive because it's expected that people will identify with him anyway, and maybe even prefer him for that fact because he's viewed as non-threatening. Whereas women in the media are almost always attractive... and even if they're portrayed as decidedly unattractive, it's through tricks of makeup and costume that are easily reversed halfway through the situation.

That said, I'm not sure that my media savvy is up to a discussion of fan service - I'm pretty well out of the loop on current series, though I'm hoping to catch up on Heroes now that it's all available online. ;) My general impression is that you're probably right, although I wonder if it might be in part because of viewership? There's a stereotype in the business that women tend to be more likely than men to appreciate "the whole package" as opposed to pieces and parts. Personally, I'm a walking embodiment of that stereotype, at times - the body can be as pretty as it wasnts, but if I don't care for the personality of the character, I'm totally cold to seeing it paraded half-nude. And that goes for either sex. So possibly I'm not the best person to speak on this subject.

Okay, so I surfed in here REALLY late...

[zodiacal-light.livejournal.com]

But I thought you might appreciate the perspective of an asexual person.

In short, I identify with a lot of characters, but I'm not attracted to any of them. I do find, though, that the characters I identify with, male or female, are characters who in some way have traits I desire in me; I do not think it's farfetched at all to think that those traits you want to see in yourself (i.e. those traits you identify with) are also traits you'd like to see in a partner.

(I will add that one of the big blocks of identification, for me, is if a character has a strong romantic plot arc - I totally disidentify with that.)

Hope you don't mind the late comment from a stranger...

Re: Okay, so I surfed in here REALLY late...

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

No worries, and pleased to meet you! I think my favorite thing about the 'net is that conversations hang around and can continue for a long time. ;)

You make a really interesting point about identifying with traits one wants to see in oneself, rather than always with what one already sees, and how those same traits often turn up in what is imagined in an ideal partner.

I have to admit, I'm intrigued by the concept of asexuality, in that it's completely foreign to the way my mind works. I don't think I've ever managed to not be interested in attraction.