more Buffy - end of S5

[rivendellrose]

Last night began with Kendra and I deciding that we were sufficiently recovered from the angst of "The Body" to continue with Buffy season 5... and ended at 1:30am when we finished the season. There were just too many great cliffhangers! We couldn't stop til we'd seen the whole thing.

Biggest thing that occurred to me at the end of all of that... S5 would've been a great place to leave the series. Just like that - just where the season ended. That was a fabulous finale, and it left all the characters in good (...well, good from a narrative point of view, at least) places. I don't know much about S6, aside from the musical episode and "Tabula Rasa," but I know enough about the end of the series proper to know that I sort of wish the series had ended this way. Apart from Buffy, everybody would've been happier, and even Buffy seemed pretty damned content with her decisions and her conclusion in "The Gift." From a narrative standpoint... that's how being a Slayer works.


The whole Glory/Ben thing was handled very well (ack, I mean that slash in the sense of "they are one and the same kind of" not in the "they're doing things" way!), particularly the fact that no one but Spike could seem to keep that thought in their head. I liked that - it was a good, sensible explanation of the whole thing. And Ben was adorable, so very human, and very understandable in the decisions he made throughout. I liked that character.

The RV chase scene rocked. Just plain and simple. However. Something oddly familiar, there at the end. What with the chase and then the relief of "yay, we got away from them" and then the harpoon. Through the windshield. And into someone's torso.

...Serenity flashback, anybody? Or rather, Serenity was a flashback of this? I swear, if I hadn't already been spoiled for Giles being alive in later episodes, I would have screamed bloody murder at that moment. As it was, I just swore and ranted at Joss for using the same damned dirty trick twice. Dear gods that man is evil!

(Buffy fans who were later Firefly fans, did this not freak you out, when you saw Serenity? Maybe it's just me... Or maybe there was enough gap between the two that it wasn't so noticeable for most folks. Still. SAME DAMNED THING! EXACTLY!)

Spike is adorable. I love that his moral compass is completely defined by who he's in love with at the time - when he's with Dru, it's all about chaos and evil and whatever the hell he wants to do, and then when he's in love with Buffy... it's all about Dawn, and protecting Buffy, and sort of being a reluctant hero/anti-hero kind of thing, and it irritates the hell out of him but he just can't help it. So very cute. However, it gives me pause on the whole "vampires have no soul (except Angel)" thing. At some point someone indicates that it's supposed to mean that normal vampires can't fall in love, but Spike is clearly (and consciously) an example against that, so I don't really get it. What's the difference? Aside from a whole long of Angel-angst, I mean. Particularly in this arc, and particularly at the end when Buffy has died, Spike sure as hell looks like he's got just as much emotional latitude as any human.

Honestly, I'm beginning to seriously ascribe to the theory that the whole soul thing is just one big metaphysical placebo for vampires. That sounds very glib, but honestly - if Angel, being raised a Catholic, is told that he has no soul, and he suddenly has vampiric urges and all that... yeah, he's going to be a bad guy. Hell, human!Angel didn't particularly look to me like the greatest guy to begin with. So it's probably not a big jump. Same with Spike - spited young man, vampire urges, Angel, Darla and Drusilla to teach him... yeah, he's gonna be a bastard. But then these gypsies perform a curse, tell Angel he has soul again... considering his upbringing, he's going to get pretty focused on the guilt and the state of that soul pretty quickly. Then he has a moment of true happiness, and he doesn't feel worthy of it... and on top of that, the gypsies told him he'd lose his soul if he had such a moment... so he freaks and goes evil again because he thinks that's what he's supposed to do. Whereas Spike, child of the enlightenment and deeply in love with Drusilla, doesn't give a damn. And then when he starts to have feelings for Buffy... things change. He changes. I know that later, in Angel, Spike supposedly picks up a soul of his own at some point... but honestly, I don't see how that would change him.

...Maybe my morality just doesn't fit with the whole good/evil, soul/soulless deal. And part of this is me playing devil's advocate to some extent, because it's fairly clear in canon that yeah, magic does something to Angel (ie, Willow restoring him when he's gone all bad), but I still think the whole soul thing is pretty iffy.

I totally had points other than vampire morality. I know I did. I just can't think of them right now.

I'd better go take a shower.

Comments

[ruuger]

There have been whole theses written in the fandom on the subject of can soulless vampires love :) Mostly by Buffy/Spike and Buffy/Angel shippers, and I'll let you guess which group takes which position in the debate :)

And yeah, The Gift is the best season finale - and a lot of people think this is where the show should have ended - but personally I'm glad they went on to make two more seasons. And this is also when the love-it-or-hate-it bit of BtVS begins. Like I said, I like the latter seasons because of the more adult themes (and by adult, I'm not only referring to the fact that a certain male character spends 90% of season 6 naked), but a lot of people hate them because the metaphorical level is mostly left out from now on (as in, the scoobies aren't dealing with real life problems via battling metaphorical monsters, they're now battling with the 'real' real life problems), and because pretty much all of the scoobies make some really, really bad choices during S6.

[ruuger]

Oh, and I can't remember if I've mentioned this to you before, but I have a looong Buffy fic rec list here that's organised by season if you're looking for something to read (though you might want to skip the pre-series fic until you've watched S7 which gives some... interesting details about Spike's past). It's mostly Spike-centric fic, but there's other characters there too, I swear :)

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

Eee! Fic recs! Thank you so much - I've been kind of leery of wandering too much in random fic in such a big fandom, and I've pretty much exhausted the one rec list that another friend maintains, so this is wonderful!

And you won't see me complaining about a lot of Spike-centric fic. After a certain British librarian, Spike's pretty high on my list of favorite Buffy characters, too. ;)

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

I imagine so. The one place I differ is that while I much prefer Spike to Angel as characters go, I fall pretty heavily on the Buffy/Angel side of the great shipping war. The whole Buffy/Spike thing is just way too violent for my tastes - I always come out feeling bad for Spike, and with a bad feeling in my mouth about the whole situation to boot. Buffy and Angel are bad for each other, too... but in a well-suited and much less dangerous way, I think.

On the one hand, I sort of resent a lot of the things I hear about S6 and 7 - I have a feeling that once I've seen them, I'll wish I could have the innocent younger days back. But I also love a show that really lets characters grow, change, and reach the natural conclusions of their paths. So... we shall see! I have my fingers crossed that I'll like it.

[moonvoyager.livejournal.com]

Without getting into any spoilers...and with the caveat that there were a few episodes/storylines that I enjoyed in S6 & S7...I strongly agree with you. S5 was the perfect end to the series. I'll say more after you've finished watching the rest :)

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

I'm looking forward to hearing your opinions on it all, then! It's probably going to take some time for me to get through the rest of Buffy, unfortunately, what with watching Angel, now, too... but I'm still determined to get through and watch the whole thing. XD

[dreamstrifer.livejournal.com]

I also agree with the series ending at S5. It seems they were scrabbling to get some decent storylines. They did have some GREAT episodes ("Once More With Feeling" and "Tabula Rasa"), but... some of them were just like, "Why am I watchign this again?"

Same thing happened with Angel the Series, at the SAME time, too. I dont' think it was a coincidence. Oh well.

And i never got the harpoon thin gbefore you mentioned! Joss, you bastard... killing off beloved characters! Though, granted, I do the same thing in my stories...

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

Same thing happened with Angel the Series, at the SAME time, too. I dont' think it was a coincidence.

I've had it explained to me as Joss leaving Buffy and Angel in the hands of others (esp. Marti Noxon in the case of Buffy) to write Firefly. Unfortunately, IMHO he took the best person on his staff (Jane Espenson) with him. Which left Buffy and Angel kind of hanging in the lurch without the kind of direction and depth either of them would have provided to it.

As happy as I am that Firefly had the good writers (since it's what brought me into the whole thing to begin with!), that wasn't very good planning on his part...

[windrose.livejournal.com]

As far as I'm concerned, B:tvS ends with Season 5, and the UPN years are just a very bad dream. There are a couple of decent episodes dotted here and there through seasons 6 and 7, but for the most part all it did was piss me off. They did a lot of bad things to characters I really really like, and for no good reason other than Joss's "nobody gets to stay happy" rule, which, IMO, is the man's Achilles Heel as a writer. Seasons 6 and 7 are all about the angst, but they lost the quirk factor that made it bearable in earlier seasons. And what they do to Willow and Tara just pisses me off beyond the telling of it.

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

Seasons 6 and 7 are all about the angst, but they lost the quirk factor that made it bearable in earlier seasons.

Argh. That's exactly what I've been afraid of - Joss survives and is a fun writer because he has a knack for mixing just the right moments of quirky fun into his angst. But the day he loses track of that skill, it'd just get too depressing. *Sighs*

The whole Willow arc really fascinates me, in a sick way. Joss seems to have some... interesting attitudes about paganism/witchcraft, at least as far as Willow's storyline indicates. I get the whole 'power corrupts,' magic-as-drugs kind of thing, and Willow does seem like the kind of character who would take it way too far, but it's still more than a bit disconcerting sometimes.

[windrose.livejournal.com]

The problem, as you noted up-thread, was that Joss was only nominally involved with Season 6 as a result of other commitments. It really shows. The show became darker and grittier, which I didn't mind, but it also became more hopeless, which I did. And the magic user = drug user thing was really annoying. Showing the temptations of power to someone young and lacking in wisdom is one thing. Turning it into a bad after school special is another.

In season 6, everyone is broken or damaged in some way. It's unrelenting in its grimness. And the bad guys are utterly ridiculous. Which I think was supposed to be the point, but it didn't work, IMO. And the Buffy/Spike dynamic ... oy. It started out OK, but it culminates in a sequence that just had me spitting with rage because of how badly handled and OOC it is.

There are high points. The musical episode is one. Actually, now that I think about it, that's pretty much the only high point of that season.

Season 7 is better. Joss comes back on board and begins to steer the show in an actual direction instead of leaving the characters to flounder. There are even moments of levity here and there. But it's still not the Buffy I fell into fannish squee for all those seasons ago.

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

I'm just spoiled enough for things in S6 and 7 to be pretty much mentally clinging to S5 and wishing I could see the rest of the series and then erase it all from my brain. I don't want to see the characters lose hope. *Pouts* As much as I adore Firefly, I wish Joss had been more careful about neglecting his other projects for its sake.

Eugh. I, uh... yeah, I've heard bits and pieces about the culmination of the Buffy/Spike thing, and I totally wish I could just not see that. But I'm a completist, so I know I'll watch it anyway... and then rage.

If I'm really lucky, I can just get through the last two seasons and then pretend they were just a horrible bad dream.

(Also, while I do not usually approve of either torching gasoline or the wanton destruction of honeybees, I had the strange feeling you might appreciate this (http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=320231496). If only for the writer's commentary.)

[windrose.livejournal.com]

I have managed to block out most of S6-7, so it can be done! And if you tell yourself "I'm just here for half-nekkid Spike", you should be OK.

The honey-bee thing amused the hell out of me. Gotta love them rednecks!

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

For half-nekkid Spike, much can be endured. That man is entirely too pretty for his own good. ;)

Hell yes. The housemate who showed that to me kept wailing "oh, the beemanity!" before she went to bed. Very silly stuff.

[lokapala.livejournal.com]

Souled vs soulless isn't about good vs evil, actually, it's about true empathy, At least that's my story and I'm sticking to it. To debate it, though, I guess one has to see S6 and AtS. Much of the whole fandom 'but why do they need a soul!' thing seems to me to stem from irrational Spike!love and makes me allergic to the topic, grumble.

Actually, Joss didn't abandon Buffy for S6. S7 was the unfortunate season that got paralleled with Firefly. Joss planned S6 - the Life is the Big Bad idea was his, his Once More With Feeling relates most of the season plotlines and the way they'll develop; but yes, he stepped back because what he wanted to do (grim) and what he could do (not so much with the grim) were not the same thing, so he invited Marti to produce the season. He worked with the woman since S2 and was perfectly aware of her writing style - he chose her for it. And I for one, think that it worked pretty well - if you're ready to accept the change in style without being forewarned, of course =)
Because it's not just the grimness - in earlier seasons, the metaphors were used as long as they could be inserted into a lifestory, but in S6-S7 what was a lifestory became a metaphor in itself: when you look back on them, it's obvious that the time in S6-S7 is condensed - our heroes got to experience stuff and change accordingly in inappropriately small amount of time - that never happened in earlier seasons. Style changed, it's not so bad if you accept it, but if you keep comparing them with S1-S5 as if it's completely the same thing, it won't work.

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

Hmm... I can't wait 'til I've seen more so I can debate this with you. I like to think that I don't so much suffer from irrational Spike love as I do from knee-jerk distaste for the idea that humans are somehow holier, better, or just plain different than anything else on this earth. Although I do admit that I tend to have a fondness for the morally ambiguous or downright morally challenged characters, which definitely includes Spike.

It's nice to get a contrary opinion to what I usually hear about S6 and 7. It's hard to keep an open mind about them, given the prevailing opinion among the people I live with, but I'll do my best to give it a fair chance. I'm kind of a sap, though - I have a feeling I'll end up missing the happier days of the early seasons. ;)

[lokapala.livejournal.com]

Oh, I didn't mean you when I mentioned irrational Spike love =) I just meant that it's very obvious that it's a factor when it comes to fandom vogue.

from knee-jerk distaste for the idea that humans are somehow holier, better, or just plain different than anything else on this earth

Erm. But humans are just plain different. Everything is different, isn't that the point? You know, biodiversity and all that... ;)
I don't see where the 'holier, better' notion comes into play when we're talking about Jossverse creatures and Jossverse vampires in particular. They are crippled humans. Human-minus-soul(empathy-conscience-seed-of-buddha, take your pick). That's the idea. It's an illustration of the human condition, if you will. If there's no qualitative difference between humans and vamps, why do you even need vamps in your story? For the sheer eyecandy-attraction of their gameface? Make them human as well and you'll save on the make-up, methinks. That's why I fail to see the attraction of the fandom 'soul-what-soul-it-does-not-make-a-difference' concept. It just makes the story Joss told senseless, that's all.

You'll share your reaction to S6-7, right? These seasons, especially S6, are also interesting in that they produce the most diverse reactions =)