more on "expelled"

[rivendellrose]

Update on the whole "Expelled" fiasco...

waywardcats linked this article over on anthropologist, and it offers some really great refutations of the idea that "Expelled" is speaking for all scientists who also have some sort of faith. I'm very pleased to see this argument brought up, because it's very true that there are plenty of good, well-known scientists who believe both in religion and in evolution. They don't have to be mutually exclusive - that's just a dichotomy that the proponents of Intelligent Design like to play because it helps their cause.

And if my phone rings one more time while I'm on my lunch break, I'm going to scream. People get to pester me all they want while I'm on the clock, but NOT on my lunch break, darn it!

Comments

[ciara-belle.livejournal.com]

the form of Catholicism that Ken Miller accepts and practices is, is nowhere near the form of Catholicism that is followed by Catholics who are members of the Catholic church, who believe in Catholic doctrine.

Oh, that is such crap. They're right, Miller wasn't included because he doesn't fit into their tidy little boxes.

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

Exactly. I mean, I know there are Catholics who are equivalent to the fundies of other religions, but... jeez, I certainly can't imagine any of the Catholics I know are in that category. So all of a sudden they're not Catholics? Pleeeease. :P

These morons have screwed up at every turn in the making of this stupid "documentary." I'm seriously starting to wonder if at any point in the creation of the film they've said a single thing that's actually true. Except, of course, that they don't believe in evolution. That, at least, is true... but also hellishly sad.

[ciara-belle.livejournal.com]

Yeah, considering two popes have come out and said that, given allowances for God's creation of the soul, there's no reason evolution and Catholic theology have to be incompatible, I don't think so.

Oh, the Catholic fundies. I think we actually have two types now. There are the charismatic Catholics, who are more like evangelicals (and, I'm sorry, shouting and random outbursts during Mass, I'm not cool with that) and then we have the rad trads, who are waaaaaay on the other side (ie, the people who are really pissed off about Vatican II. The level of pissed-off-ness does vary, though. Not all of them went to the trouble to elect a new pope.)

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

Exactly. I wonder sometimes if the current pope isn't leaning toward rescinding that statement... but I certainly hope he wouldn't. And I get the sense that even if he did it wouldn't make a whole heck of a lot of difference for most American Catholics, at least here in the west coast. Not sure if that's true in your area or not.

I have to say, the only Catholic service I've been to recently (several years ago, admittedly) was ...well, to be honest, it felt exactly like a standard Protestant service, except with added standing. It was at a student center, so maybe that wasn't the most broadly indicative service I could have chosen, but... it unnerved me. I really wouldn't have expected guitars and electric keyboards at a Mass. Am I right in thinking that kind of thing is a recent development... and perhaps a bit unusual?

[lovelies.livejournal.com]

But I would tell you from a, my personal standpoint as somebody who’s worked on this project, that Ken Miller would have confused the film unnecessarily.

Oh, gee.

It's so different here. We assume all scientists are Christian unless they've made a point of telling us otherwise (which is another set of problems in itself). There are many closetet secularists in my faculty, but the fundamentalists stay in the cupboard too. You just wouldn't bring your personal views on religion onto the public arena.

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

Isn't that the most bizarre statement ever?

It's funny you say that, because a lot of the literature on religion versus science or atheism indicates that Europe is vastly more secular than the US. It sounds like what you're talking about is a sense of keeping everything more intensely under the covers, whether religion or any other personal belief... and I have to say that idea sort of appeals to me. As much as I love the American philosophy that we should be able to "be ourselves no matter what," it certainly feels like most people take it out the other end, making their personal issues (whatever those may be) into a public issue.

[lovelies.livejournal.com]

Oh, documentarists should never confuse the audience with facts.

There are naturally a lot of different kinds of takes on religion here, enough have fought many a war over them. But I think the thing to keep in mind is that religion has been integrated into society for a very long time. It's had to survive revolutions of many kinds; political, scientific, religious. Because it is a part of society it can't stand in front of science, technology, the progress of modern society, so it's had to find other ways of existing, accommodating to the views of the moderate majority.

You could say that society is more secular. But there are also religious traditions that most people venerate, deeply connected to the very culture of Europe, and the institutions of any given society may be intertwined with the religious institutions in complicated ways.

Especially here in the North, you have countries that are Lutheran through and through, you have national cults headed by the government and the Churches have a lot of social influence. But also because of the doctrine of the two regiments, people know that there's a time and place for religion and another where it isn't needed or wanted. It's sort like a 'don't call us, we'll call you' arrangement. Or, in more biblical terms... religion exists for people (when they need it; weddings, funerals, disasters), not people for religion.

[kjog.livejournal.com]

I'm a good, well-known scientist (ha) who has faith. Of course, neither the Atheists nor the Christians appreciate my faith, but it's there none the less.

Also, hi. :)

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

Hey, that's supposed to be what matters, right? Anyway, I think appreciation by organized groups is... often overrated. Goodness knows I could never seem to get along with groups of more than one pagan when I was one of them. Even Unitarians occasionally make me twitchy in large groups, so... yeah. :P

And Hi! Haven't heard from you in ages, how goes stuff? I think the last thing I saw was that you got the job you were looking at... is that still going well?

[tonsai.livejournal.com]

okay, i just wanted to thank you for posting about this at all, because otherwise i wouldn't know exactly why i wanted to punch ben stein's smug little face every time i see this film advertised.

during the effing DAILY SHOW.

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

Oh yeah. The ads have been showing up on NPR, for god's sake. I keep wanting to write them a nasty letter about that, but then I remember they need money...

I still might write the letter, though. The thought of them indirectly supporting Intelligent Design just makes my skin crawl.