rivendellrose: (Delenn)
[personal profile] rivendellrose
I should probably be slightly worried about how quickly we got through all of that. o_O It indicates that we watch far too much television on weeknights. But hey, fun stuff.



The Long, Twilight Struggle

Draal is back, and even fruitier than ever! Apparently feeling younger and more energetic makes him bombast more (shush, 'bombast' should totally be a verb). I have to admit, I was knitting during most of this, which means I wasn't paying perfect attention to what was onscreen except during bits I really wanted to watch, and at first when we cut to someone's quarters with someone in the shower getting disturbed by the message from Draal, I somehow got confused and thought we were getting Ivanova. Obviously the universe (let alone JMS) does not love me enough to let Ivanova have a shower scene. John is lovely, but I'm afraid he's a distant third fourth in the "sexiest person on B5" sweepstakes. And that's on a day when I'm not admitting to my perverse love for any Minbari but Delenn.

Draal tells Sheridan "you'll know" who to take with him to the planet. Apparently he knows Delenn very well indeed, and didn't want to steal her thunder when, five seconds later, she goes running to find Sheridan and assume that he'll bring her. ♥

Naturally the main feeling in this episode is feeling badly for G'Kar, who pretty much gets shoved through the wringer in this one (as preparation, no doubt, for all the wringering he'll be getting next season and the following season and... you know, for the next 21 years). Londo also gets practice being the scum the universe wiped off the bottom of its boots, which is good as he'll need to use those skills next season if I'm remembering correctly. The shot of shadows falling across his face as he watched the destruction of Narn was particularly nice, as was his vicious treatment of G'Kar in the council chamber. Just when you think he's starting to regret his actions, he suddenly realizes that he can use them to make G'Kar crawl, and seems to feel that everything else is, if not quite worthwhile, at least something he can make use of for that purpose. I love him, but he's such a disgusting jackass in these episodes. Huge kudos as always to Peter Jurasik and Andreas Katsulas who, as always, carry the emotional weight of some really tough plotlines with serious grace.

And then we meet the Rangers officially. I admit, I spent the whole time wishing Marcus was there - I can't wait for him to show up next season. ♥

Comes the Inquisitor

I'd mentioned a while ago to [livejournal.com profile] icepixie that I was looking forward to seeing this episode again, to see how I felt about it. I remembered... liking it, but feeling uncertain of a lot of things? And, go figure, I feel about the same this time around, too. Wayne Alexander is deliciously creepy as Sebastian, although something in his performance kept pinging Philip Quast as Javert for me, which resulted in a binge on my 20th anniversary Les Mis CDs today - not a bad thing, but at one point Sebastian's dialogue happened to ping a lyric, and I was off and humming. It doesn't help that Sheridan dangling in his shirtsleeves from the... big metal whatever-thing toward the end (probably intended to be a Christ-like vision) while he and Delenn simultaneously beg Sebastian to let each other go succeeds only in making me wonder if JMS spent as much time listening to Phantom of the Opera in the early 90s as I did as a teenager. What can I say? Melodrama reminds me of musical theater.

And that's pretty much what this episode comes down to - a little bit of pretend philosophy, a very small bit of real philosophy, and a lot of melodrama. It's important, certainly, for us to find out here that the Vorlons are pretty solidly on the "ends justify the means" end of the spectrum, that Delenn has doubted her destiny (and that this is a good thing, with which I totally agree), and likewise... I guess JMS felt he needed to make absolutely sure that the last few people who weren't paying attention were clear on the fact that Delenn and Sheridan have the beginnings of a Thing going on. Other than that, not a lot accomplished in this one.

There's a very nice subplot about G'Kar proving himself as a leader to the other Narn on the station, and a very nice scene with him and Vir in a lift, which just makes me want to hug them both. Kind of a lot, actually.

And, speaking of people I want to hug a lot, Lennier starts to get his "things are not going the way they should be" going on in this episode, I think. Poor boy. It's bad enough the Vorlons are trying to kill his teacher, but he can't even do anything about it - he has to go get Sheridan. For reasons that... frankly, are never entirely clear, apart from "look! A flaming ball of Plot Device!" It's not like he's never ignored Delenn's orders when her comfort/safety is concerned, so my take-away from this has to be that either ignoring her orders is only okay when it's not life threatening (?) or that he didn't feel confident standing up to Delenn and Sebastian (and, by extension, Kosh) by himself. Which... okay, I can see that. It's still a sad little plot for him.

...Now would probably be a good time to make a note that I inadvertently mentioned one of my favorite characters coming to a bad end in the series, and, when The Boy said "so it must be Ivanova or Delenn..." I panicked and, in an effort to cover for the horrible thing that happens to Ivanova at the end of S4, dragged him off to figuring out that it's Lennier. He got very quiet and thinky and said something about Lennier being "too much like an altarboy" or something for him to imagine how he'd have a bad ending. Ha. Yeah. About that. >_>

The context of the conversation was interesting, though - I was positing that everyone who is a fan of B5 seems to have one blind spot, one character or situation where the "shades of grey" morality of the characters goes over the line for them. For me (last time, at least) that line is Lennier. I have no problem with the horrible things Londo does, because even though I like him a lot I'm willing to write him off as "Londo is very sweet, but kind of a terrible person." Delenn, I willingly accept is a bit of a total psycho at times, but I love her anyway. Marcus, yes, he's a bit of a creep at times, but I love him anyway (and vehemently refuse to believe the events of that stupid post-series story that JMS wrote, thankyouverymuch. Lennier... I'm fine with absolutely everything until what happened in "Objects at Rest," and then I just flail and get angry and blame JMS, swearing up and down that he didn't give enough lead up at all for that scene, that I think it's horribly out of character, and that I wouldn't mind if it had been written better but as it is, no. Which, you know. Is probably not the most rational way of responding to a character doing something bad. ...And then, sometimes I blame Sheridan, because he's a big puppy and he's very easy to blame for things. I love him, but it's true.

To get back to the plot briefly, I thought I should note that I've always found Sebastian's cane clicking across the floor a very effective way of raising tension. Straight from the beginning of the episode, I flinched when I heard it.

The Fall of Night

First meeting of the Discontented Ambassadorial Attaches Society! ♥ Oh, boys. They're so adorable, talking without so much as looking at each other, and then looking utterly flabbergasted when they say the same thing.

John Vickery is adorable as Mr. Welles. &heart; I quite enjoyed seeing him out of his Neroon makeup and in a different (if equally smarmy and annoying) character. Also, I apparently missed Robin Sachs as a Narn in this episode! How sad. Fortunately, IMDB tells me I will have several other chances to pick him out, so I'm not too worried.

The sweet old grandfather who looks like Gepetto couldn't possibly be a bad guy, could he? Of course not. :P

Also, hey, Sheridan! Put up that nice keepsake Ivanova got you on your wall for the next time Neroon and his crew stop by! I dare you. It'll be hilarious. Or, hell, just put it up in your quarters for the next time Delenn and Lennier stop by. I'm sure the results would be awesome. :P In all honesty, it's a lovely gift, but some part of me is still picturing the thought process. "Hmm, what to get for the guy who has everything? I know! I'll get him a piece of the ship he destroyed in that whole incident that's still causing unbelievably awkward problems with our closest allies! Yes! It'll be perfect!"

...And now I'm picturing the damned thing sitting in a box when he and Delenn move in together. How long do you think it'll last before she finds it and makes it 'disappear?'

Somehow, I had always gotten the impression that Valeria was female. Screencaps tell me that either I was wrong, or Delenn was wearing some rather odd padding when she was full Minbari. Not sure what to make of that. I mean, obviously my impression was probably nothing more than the fact that Valeria is a very female-sounding name in English. But I'm still a bit weirded out by the bare-chested not-reall-a-Minbari (and, strangely, slightly disturbed that the well-loved fanon of Minbari having more bony-bits going on on their chest is apparently canonically not true. Alas, I'd always sort of liked that convention). Not nearly as weirded out, mind, as I was by Kosh as a 'human'!Angel. Is it just me, or was that 'angel' just a teeny bit creepy-looking?

"For millions of years, the Vorlons have visited other worlds, guided them and..."

"Manipulated us? Programmed us so that... when we saw them, we would react the right way?"

"It is, as you say, a matter of perspective."


Good to be reminded that Sheridan's not quite as dumb as he looks... sometimes.

And Londo saw nothing. The guide has JMS saying that there's a hint about this regarding something to do with Centauri beliefs earlier in the season, but I call bullshit. Kosh isn't interested in impressing Londo, because he knows he's already an agent of the shadows, and/or Londo is utterly blinded to the effect Vorlons have on the others because of the Shadow taint on him. I could go either way (or both, since they're not mutually exclusive), but I find it difficult to believe that it's just that no Centauri would have seen anything. If Vir had been there, I have no doubt he'd have seen... oh, the Centauri god/dess of the sun or something appropriate like that.

Lovely end to the season. We come full circle to New Years, everything's going to hell in a hand-basket, and I can't wait for S3 even though the closer we get to S4 and S5, the more sure I am that while I only got weepy last time, I'm going to bawl my eyeballs out at a few things this time around. But there's a lot of fun stuff between then and now. *Contented sigh*

Date: 2010-07-02 10:18 pm (UTC)
ext_23722: (Default)
From: [identity profile] ariastar.livejournal.com
I think I am going to continue my rewatch for real tonight, because you're reminding me that I ADORE s2. :D

John is lovely, but I'm afraid he's a distant third fourth in the "sexiest person on B5" sweepstakes.

Okay, now I want to know who the first three are! I think John is about fourth on mine too, incidentally, with the first three being, hm, Delenn, Ivanova, and G'Kar. I think this show makes me aliensexual.

Re: Comes the Inquisitor, I actually really love it, but mostly because then I can say things like "My canon OTP's love is proved by Jack the Ripper!" It is not really deep.

Re: Lennier and shades-of-gray morality, I completely agree! I am not attached to Lennier in the same way that you are, I think, but it still breaks my heart and pings me as weirdly wrong in a way that nothing else does. (And that I can't forgive Lennier/the writing for that is ridiculous, because even in s2/3, before he starts his difficult redemption arc, I mostly just want to help Londo, and never stop loving him. Absurd!)

I am fairly sure that Londo not seeing Kosh because of Centauri religious beliefs is rubbish. He didn't see because he was Shadowed, and Vir definitely would've seen something.

Date: 2010-07-02 11:55 pm (UTC)
ext_18428: (John/Delenn)
From: [identity profile] rivendellrose.livejournal.com
You should! Just power through S1 so that you can get to the good stuff. ♥

I have a history of being a bit aliensexual, myself. Blame growing up on too much sci-fi. And yes, I'd have to agree wtith the order going something along the lines of Delenn and Ivanova, and then, for me, a sort of mumbling panic between G'Kar, Marcus, and actually admitting that I might possibly consider Lennier sexy in some bizarre way. Generally it's Marcus I'd like to jump, G'Kar I'd like to just spend hours listening to and would happily do whatever kept him talking, and Lennier... is just complicated. So possibly poor John rates fourth or even fifth, depending on my mood. It's not that I find him unattractive, it's just... that I'm crazy about the weird aliens. And the faintly crazy humans.

I actually really love it, but mostly because then I can say things like "My canon OTP's love is proved by Jack the Ripper!"

Yes, this! And it is really just so melodramatic that it can't fail to be sort of fabulous.

it still breaks my heart and pings me as weirdly wrong in a way that nothing else does.

Maybe it's not just my twisted obsession with him, then! Anyway, Bill Mumy was apparently super upset about the thing in "Objects at Rest," too, so... I'm sticking with "JMS pulled it out of his ass just to be mean."

I mostly just want to help Londo, and never stop loving him. Absurd!

It's strange, isn't it? Of course I get mad at him and so on, but I never feel like "that's it, you are irredeemable, you horrible person!" He's somehow irresistible. And, also, the writing on his descent is so much better than the out-of-a-clear-blue-sky wtf-ery that was Lennier's. :P

Date: 2010-07-03 12:26 am (UTC)
ext_23722: (Default)
From: [identity profile] ariastar.livejournal.com
Watching away! I'm sort of determinedly plodding away at all the bits between 'Signs and Portents' and 'Babylon Squared,' although I guess 'Voice in the Wilderness' is decent. But I can't just skip all of first season, because I know I'll miss excellent character bits.

I do not judge you at all for your thing for Lennier! I mean, I don't think I could ever personally consider him sexually, because I would much rather, say, bake cookies with him while having geeky conversations about history and culture, but finding him attractive completely makes sense to me. (Also, man, judging you for being attracted to any of the aliens on this show would be throwing stones at glass houses, because ... okay, I'm not far gone enough to find Londo attractive, but I have such a giant crush on his character arc that it sort of bleeds over into having a crush on him.)

And yes, it's not just your obsession with him! I mean, my alien agenda does mean I am super fond of Lennier, but -- augh. To be honest, in my brain nothing happened in fifth season except for the Londo and G'Kar and Drakh and B5-dealing-with-Centauri-Prime stuff. Well, and Sleeping in Light. But basically, Lennier couldn't deal with Delenn and Sheridan's marriage very well, so he went off and did awesome things with the Rangers, and eventually he settled back into his calm space, accepted his love of Delenn for what it was, and eventually got around to being BFFs with Sheridan and hanging around to help raise David. THIS ARE FACT.

Date: 2010-07-03 12:37 am (UTC)
gaslightgallows: (I blame fandom!)
From: [personal profile] gaslightgallows
...basically, Lennier couldn't deal with Delenn and Sheridan's marriage very well, so he went off and did awesome things with the Rangers, and eventually he settled back into his calm space, accepted his love of Delenn for what it was, and eventually got around to being BFFs with Sheridan and hanging around to help raise David. THIS ARE FACT.

May I adopt your head!canon, please?

Date: 2010-07-03 12:38 am (UTC)
ext_23722: (Default)
From: [identity profile] ariastar.livejournal.com
Yes! It is happy headcanon and I am delighted to share it. :D

Date: 2010-07-03 12:40 am (UTC)
ext_18428: (all love is unrequited)
From: [identity profile] rivendellrose.livejournal.com
Yeah, I'm joining the headcanon adoption. That sounds a hell of a lot better than what happened in canon, and it's not fair for only Delenn and the Humans (...so, anybody at least half-human, I guess?) to get happy endings. :P

Date: 2010-07-03 12:55 am (UTC)
gaslightgallows: (I blame fandom!)
From: [personal profile] gaslightgallows
Yay! Thank you! :)

Date: 2010-07-03 03:08 am (UTC)
ext_18428: (all love is unrequited)
From: [identity profile] rivendellrose.livejournal.com
Yay! ♥ There's some surprisingly decent stuff in S1 - at least I know I was surprised. But there is also some horrifyingly crappy stuff... which tends to have awesome character stuff hidden in the middle. It's very frustrating.

I would much rather, say, bake cookies with him while having geeky conversations about history and culture

That's all certainly on the agenda for me, too. The sexual bit snuck upon me completely, and I'm still a bit boggled. But I've long since learned it doesn't pay to argue with my subconsciousness. Closest I've come to Londo was awkward naked dreams, but he does have the very best and most awesome character arc in the series, and he's absurdly cute when he's not being a total moron. ♥

And I've already replied to your head-canon, but I feel the need to reiterate that I love every word of it. And agree that absolutely nothing else happened in S5. (Telepaths? What telepaths? :P) ♥

Date: 2010-07-02 11:28 pm (UTC)
ext_6531: (DW: Romana (destiny))
From: [identity profile] lizbee.livejournal.com
Re: Valeria's gender, I just handwaved it as being androgynous, which (Christian) angels are also meant to be. Although there are a couple of novels, mostly by Peter David, which claim that Delenn was actually androgynous when she was a full Minbari. Which is a nice try, but I think it's pretty obvious that Delenn and Mayan are female, and Neroon is male, and .. yeah.

Date: 2010-07-02 11:43 pm (UTC)
ext_18428: (Change)
From: [identity profile] rivendellrose.livejournal.com
Interesting! I wonder if that particular novel was written early enough that it was based on the pilot script? Because at that time they really did still mean Delenn to be androgynous or flat-out male.

Other than that, yeah. Secondary sex characteristics being what they are, I think we have fairly clear distinction. Leaving aside Lennier, who, bless him, could almost qualify as properly androgynous.

Date: 2010-07-03 03:35 am (UTC)
ext_6531: (B5: Delenn (shadow dancer))
From: [identity profile] lizbee.livejournal.com
Well, it was the In the Beginning novelisation, so I don't think that excuse flies. On the other hand, it was Londo's narration, so maybe that's just his perceptions at work.

Date: 2010-07-03 03:41 am (UTC)
ext_18428: (Delenn)
From: [identity profile] rivendellrose.livejournal.com
On the other hand, it was Londo's narration, so maybe that's just his perceptions at work.

In that case, maybe the problem was that she wasn't wearing a bustle, a corset, and a low, cleavage-revealing bodice. Or less. ;)

Date: 2010-07-03 08:58 am (UTC)
ext_6531: (Random: Statler & Waldorf)
From: [identity profile] lizbee.livejournal.com
In that case, maybe the problem was that she wasn't wearing a bustle, a corset, and a low, cleavage-revealing bodice.

It's a lack that has troubled many of us, really. Or maybe just me.

Date: 2010-07-03 05:01 pm (UTC)
ext_18428: (flirty)
From: [identity profile] rivendellrose.livejournal.com
The thought had never occurred to me before last night, but you can bet that now I'm thinking "gee, she really would look stunning in a nicer version of one of those Centauri get-ups."

"Cute, for a Minbari" indeed. :P

Date: 2010-07-03 12:26 am (UTC)
gaslightgallows: (Hello Cthulu!)
From: [personal profile] gaslightgallows
"Comes the Inquisitor" is very likely my favorite B5 episode of all time, because I love the juxtaposition of Victorian London with 23rd century outer space, and because Wayne Alexander is fantastic. (I also love that JMS went out of his way on Usenet to separate this episode from the TOS ep "Wolf in the Fold," which also deals with Jack the Ripper.)

Melodrama reminds me of musical theater.

Musical theater is melodrama! :D

At the end of the episode, when Sheridan's finally put all the pieces together (bless 'im), he's talking about the murders in London but says "West End" instead of "East End," which coupled with your comment and gave me this really weird image of Sebastian lurking around Her Majesty's theatre looking for impressionable young fangirls to inquisite.

Date: 2010-07-03 03:13 am (UTC)
ext_18428: (octopus 2)
From: [identity profile] rivendellrose.livejournal.com
I love the juxtaposition of Victorian London with 23rd century outer space

It really is fantastic, and in large part because Sebastian is so utterly un-phased by it all. Aliens? Space station? Weird future shit? Whatever. He doesn't care. He is just going to own your soul with his lovely cane and his very fine hat. ♥

Musical theater is melodrama! :D

Too true, but it says something about my brain, I think, that I can't see melodrama on the level of "CtI" without thinking "aren't you supposed to be singing? I'm sure we can find you some songs..."

coupled with your comment and gave me this really weird image of Sebastian lurking around Her Majesty's theatre looking for impressionable young fangirls to inquisite.

Hee! He so would. (And god, did I ever feel bad for JMS, reading the old Usenet quotes about that mix-up. Usually when he's rationalizing and "oh, but I couldn't POSSIBLY be doing ANYTHING like anyone ELSE, because I'm a speshul snowflake writer!" I kind of go *sigh* at him, but... poor fellow. Everybody fucks up, and that's an embarrassing one to get caught in. ♥

I have no Chthulhu icon to throw back at you, so you get my octopus. Because I love my octopus. ♥

Sorry, wrong octopus. I wanted to use my new one. :D
Edited Date: 2010-07-03 03:14 am (UTC)

Date: 2010-07-21 07:09 pm (UTC)
icepixie: ([B5] Ivanova facepalm)
From: [personal profile] icepixie
Obviously the universe (let alone JMS) does not love me enough to let Ivanova have a shower scene.

But we do get the naked dream in..."Sic Transit Vir," I think? It's not long after the secession. *uses appropriate icon from that episode*

I hadn't even thought of that Black Star shrapnel being somewhat offensive to Delenn down the line. Hee! I'll be she does make sure it disappears. at some point.

Kosh's human angel was creepy, yes. It needed hair, I think.

Date: 2010-07-21 08:48 pm (UTC)
ext_18428: (Susan)
From: [identity profile] rivendellrose.livejournal.com
But we do get the naked dream in..."Sic Transit Vir," I think?

We do, indeed! And it was lovely. ♥ I'd forgotten all about that until we got to it the other day.

It needed hair, I think.

That might very well have been it, yeah.

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