'a measure of salvation'

[rivendellrose]

Look! Helo did something good and active and smart, and he (so far) hasn't been killed or seriously villainized for it. HA. Take that, overwhelming sense of doom every time he walks on screen! And Athena is even immune to the plague (because of the baby? Umm... I don't think maternal antibodies work that way, but... whatever!)!

...Granted, Helo and Athena are mostly safe despite ruining the big genocide plan because Daddy!Adama appears to agree with them that yeah, outright genocide via biological warfare is probably not the greatest idea ever. Good on Daddy!Adama. I'm very much with him on this. Roslin and Apollo, I can see where you're coming from, but... how about no. Put me down for a "no" on the genocide question, if it's all the same to you.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'll be off panicking over how nervous it made me to have that very sweet, tender scene with Helo and Athena at the end, and Athena telling him she'll always love him. Why do I get the awful feeling that's just foreshadowing for when she goes totally bugfuck after finding out that Hera's still alive? Oh, yeah - because it's this show, and nothing is ever good for very long.

Still, I'll take my five minutes of happy, thank you, and be grateful for them.

Also, Gaius: dear lord that was an interesting little bit there, what with the torture and Head!Six, and poor Caprica!Six, and D'Anna and everything. Very interesting stuff. Personally, if I were D'Anna, I think I might have been a teensy bit worried by Gaius in that last bit with the "I LOVE YOU!" end to the torture. Good way to freak her the hell out, but... slightly unnerving, as well.

Comments

[kungfuwaynewho.livejournal.com]

I hate this episode, LOL. And I kinda hate Helo in it, too. I don't want to harsh your squee so I'll leave it at that.

Apparently Six giving Baltar sexytimes while he's being tortured was too explicit for them to shoot at the beach like they had planned, so they had to do it on a soundstage. That makes me laugh.

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

Awwwww, but why? Unless it's spoilery, like "because something horrible happens out of it later!" Seriously, though, I'm curious - I could totally see where Roslin and Apollo were coming from on wanting to end things, I just happen to be more on the Adama and Helo "ends don't justify the means" kind of side of things.

...Well, plus I'm fairly sure that I've been surviving this show through a cut-throat decision that everyone is going to suffer and have horrible things happen to them, so I'm just going to pick the people I care about and try not to care when other people have horrible things happen to them, and Helo somehow got his name first on the list.

That's adorable about the beach filming. They should've gone to the clothing-optional beach outside UBC! I've never been there personally, but I'm sure they could've got away with whatever, particularly since they had obviously-professional camera equipment.

[kungfuwaynewho.livejournal.com]

Okay, you asked why. A couple things: this episode felt very preachy to me. Normally BSG just presents its moral dilemmas and leaves them up in the air, but I definitely felt this was framed as "genocide is not the solution, kids," and it just grated on me. Like, no, I don't agree with genocide, duh, but by the end of the episode I was rooting for all dead Cylons all the time just to be contrary.

It also irritated me that Helo got off scot-free. Starbuck had been behaving like an asshole the episode before but she hadn't actually done anything against regs, and Adama still shoved her onto the floor and called her a cancer. Helo's actions here are mutinous - regardless of whether he's right or wrong, he expressly went against Adama's orders. Following the chain of command is something that comes up in a later episode, but let's just say that in that case Adama doesn't end up going "oh well, it's for the best." The fact that absolutely nothing happened to Helo irritated me. It made Adama seem weak and it made me wonder why Helo was getting special treatment. And I like Helo a lot, but this is one of the episodes where the writer (Michael Angeli, who wrote Black Market and The Womnan King, so) hung a little halo around his head. It's clear that Angeli really loved Helo, and I think it was on TWoP that someone coined the expression "Angeli in his Helo suit" - that it got a little Marty Stu-ish. Which, to not spoil you any more than you already are for TWK, is one of the main reasons I dislike that episode so much. And since you liked Helo in this one, maybe you will like TWK, LOL!

I think it wasn't so much the nudity as the fact that she really had to faux-ride him like a cowboy that made the shoot too explicit. I can't remember for sure, though; I've only watched this one with commentary once.

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

Agreed on the preachy thing - it wasn't one of their best by a long shot. :P On the other hand, with the set-up they had going, I think they pretty much had to have somebody suggest it, and after that... it went moderately well as far as the characters dealing with it in a realistic way, I thought.

I wasn't actually expecting Helo to get away with it, either - it kind of boggled me, too, until I remembered that Adama pretty clearly didn't want to carry out the order, either. I think in a way he was grateful that Helo went behind his back, because it prevented him from having to carry out Roslin's order. Also, I think Helo is getting special treatment - I get the distinct impression that both he and Sharon are, at this point, because Adama feels guilty for how things have gone down for them and, more than anything, for the whole thing with Hera. Plus, it looked in the beginning of this season like Adama was pretty well alone with the two of them on Galactica for that year when everybody was on New Caprica, so... bonding. Rationalization! XD

but this is one of the episodes where the writer (Michael Angeli, who wrote Black Market and The Womnan King, so) hung a little halo around his head. It's clear that Angeli really loved Helo, and I think it was on TWoP that someone coined the expression "Angeli in his Helo suit" - that it got a little Marty Stu-ish.

I can definitely see how that would happen, and... yeah. I think the reason I'm so okay with it (so far, at least) is that one of my worries going into the show both the first time and this time was "Are we going to get to the point where every single character has done something reprehensible and I have a hard time liking anyone?" I've ended up clinging to Helo, Sharon, and, to a slightly lesser extent, Big Adama and Roslin (that last is very debatable and depends quite a lot on the moment - I loved her in "Collaborators," but at other times have kind of wanted to strangle her) as the characters I can still love morally as well as characters I can love as characters. It strains believability, yes, but it... kind of makes me feel less panicked about the show's dark tendencies, so I'm inclined to forgive. At least so far. We'll see what happens later on, particularly now that it's an issue that's on my conscious radar. ;)

[kungfuwaynewho.livejournal.com]

I think the reason I'm so okay with it (so far, at least) is that one of my worries going into the show both the first time and this time was "Are we going to get to the point where every single character has done something reprehensible and I have a hard time liking anyone?"

Ah, I think I've pinpointed a key difference in our TV viewing habits. I don't have a hard time liking characters who are reprehensible, heh. The times I didn't like Baltar were because he was whiny and annoying, not because of his actual "continually complicit in the destruction of humanity" thing.

It's funny; I think a BSG post or two ago someone brought up how the show gets even darker, and I all I could think was, jeez, there's no way she'll be able to watch Caprica. That show makes BSG look like a Disney special, LOL.

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

Fair point - and it's not entirely true, either. I still love Gaius... or more to the point, I still love watching Gaius squirm whenever he screws things up and nearly gets himself into hot water. Watching him wriggle like a worm on a hook just delights me (especially the buggy look in his eyes - I can't get enough of it). And I still love Starbuck, even though she makes me want to slap her. Tigh... I just want to strangle, but he's a very interesting character. My problem, I think, is that I have to... I don't know, feel like the characters are worth caring about? Possibly I have to have someone I feel like I'd want to go have a beer with, even if they're just a minor character?

The more I talk about this the more I'm not even sure what I'm saying. :P Suffice to say, it makes me feel better to have someone around who has very distinct morals and doesn't let the situation impact them (so far). I think I'd just find the whole show too depressing if there wasn't someone like that.

all I could think was, jeez, there's no way she'll be able to watch Caprica. That show makes BSG look like a Disney special, LOL.

I'll have to keep that in mind. ;) For the most part I've been okay with BSG's level of darkness, but every now and then (*cough* Pegasus *cough*) it just gets to the point where I'm like "y'know... that's enough for me for now, thanks. I have to go forget that a lot of that happened." I'm such a wimp.

[kungfuwaynewho.livejournal.com]

No, I see what you're saying! I should have been more clear - it's not so much that I'm okay with liking morally gray characters, but that I prefer morally gray characters. Which is why I like Helo okay but he's just not that compelling to me - and the one time he does do something interesting (killing the prisoners before they can download and infect everyone), it's not presented as problematic but instead something Good.

I just like dark in general. Ugh, Pegasus, I will never get tired of watching it. Caprica is dark as shit but I'm totally in love with it; talk about a show where every single character has done something reprehensible, LOL.

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

The interesting thing is that I normally like morally grey characters, too - they're usually my favorites! Of course that's in shows that are severely lacking in overt moral dark (B5, any of the Star Treks, etc). I think in this case I hit some kind of grey-character-overload or something weird like that. :P I walked into the show expecting to end up hating everyone (thank god that hasn't happened at all, but I remember being terrified that it would) and so attached myself neurotically to the character I deemed least likely to do anything horrible, I guess.

I may have to stay away from Caprica, if it's that dark - we'll see how I feel by the end of BSG, though. As horrifying as I occasionally find it, I'm totally sucked in, so... ;)

[icepixie]

I have similar feelings on this episode, especially about Helo's Marty Stuness. I think what most annoyed me about it was that not only did we get the "do we dare commit genocide even when they tried to do it to us?" question again, but we don't even get new info on where the characters would fall: we already knew Roslin and Lee would be for it, Helo against it, and Adama would be wishy-washy. And we knew it would either not be implemented or wouldn't work as advertised because hey, we've got another season and a half. So...what was the point, again?

I actually liked Roslin in this episode, though. (It was basically impossible for me to ever dislike her, but anyway.) She doesn't really care that history will probably revile her as long as humans are still around to write history books.

(...Oh, god, I just realized. She kind of reminds me of Londo.)

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

And we knew it would either not be implemented or wouldn't work as advertised because hey, we've got another season and a half. So...what was the point, again?

There's definitely an element of that, yeah. I got just caught up enough in it to be worried that Athena would die of the plague, because, hell, there's a lot more Sharons out there, but as far as sudden death for every Cylon everywhere? Not gonna happen at this point in the series.

I'm steadfast on Helo being less a Marty Stu and more a necessary element of a character who has solid morals, but, as I said above, it might just be because I like him and I'm weak to that kind of character. Besides, he did kill the Cylons. If he'd, like, let them go or something (impossible in this case, but go with me on the example), then I think that would cross the line. Just killing them before they could be used as vehicles of genocide? Eh. For me, that's firmly on the "within reason" side of the line, whatever we're calling that line.

(Dang, I really need to get off my butt and make a Helo icon if I'm going to keep being his Staunch Defender. *Headdesk* No point keeping the fort if you don't have a flag...)

(It was basically impossible for me to ever dislike her, but anyway.) She doesn't really care that history will probably revile her as long as humans are still around to write history books. and (...Oh, god, I just realized. She kind of reminds me of Londo.)

Yup. The thought had occurred to me as well. She's our Londo (in this case "our" being "Human"). She'll do anything, even if it violates her own morals, to keep Humanity going. And, you know, I think that's why I'm kind of okay with all the terrible things she does (in a fictional context, at least) - it's not for herself. Not a bit of it. She doesn't expect to live to see it.

[websandwhiskers.livejournal.com]

THIS was the episode I was talking about before, re: Roslyn.

. . you know what I find annoying as all hell about her? She clearly HATES the Cylons. She also uses a whole big bunch of dehumanizing jargon about how they're just machines and it's not genocide blah blah etc.

You don't hate a malfunctioning machine. You hate a person who is capable of responsibility for their actions. Pick one. You can't have it both ways.

(I'm not saying that this is psychologically unrealistic, I think it's probably VERY realistic, it's just something I'd find repellent in an actual person, and to a degree that I can't get past it and just appreciate the character as interesting in a literary sense - I'm too busy being pissed at her in a personal sense.

. . which, yes, I see the irony.)

[rivendellrose.livejournal.com]

I think it's probably VERY realistic, it's just something I'd find repellent in an actual person, and to a degree that I can't get past it and just appreciate the character as interesting in a literary sense - I'm too busy being pissed at her in a personal sense.

The thing that really interests me about this is that that's exactly how I feel about Tigh. I know he's a well-written, well-acted, complex and interesting character - I just hate him. I mean, I really, actually, get superbly angry about practically everything the guy does! In the very next episode after this one (which we just watched a few minutes ago) he's all having this big Reconciliation Thing with Adama, and I'm bitching the whole time because Saul Fucking Tigh just pisses me the hell off!

I'm wondering if this isn't a coping mechanism for the series, seriously. It seems like almost everybody I know has one, for lack of better term, whipping boy for the series.

And yeah, the genocide thing really pushed my buttons as well. I'm just (somehow!) much more capable of taking Roslin as an interesting, flawed, morally ambiguous character... whereas Saul Tigh I apparently can't deal with without just plain hating him even though, from an objective viewpoint, I can see that a lot of the things he's done have actually been less reprehensible and more understandable than the things Roslin, for instance, has done. I don't know what it is! It's just that he pushes all my bad buttons, and she... well, does sometimes, too, but then I forgive her. It's very strange.

[cyranocyrano.livejournal.com]

I think my whipping boy ended up being Starbuck.