talking meme day 2

[rivendellrose]

This one is a real blast from the past - a return to a fandom I haven't written or thought about since... 2004, I think? So apologies if my grasp of the details is a bit vague.

selenak asked for my thoughts on Joe Dawson from Highlander and his take on Cassandra and the Cassandra & Methos situation.

First off, I loved Joe. But my recollection is that he did have a tendency to be a bit... first off, credulous about his friends, and second, prone to changes in characterization for the sake of plot convenience. As you noted in your comment, it seemed like his take on whether or not people could change wobbled from day to day to fit the requirements of the given episode, because somebody had to argue with Duncan about whatever the question of the day would be.

Strangely, I don't specifically remember much about Joe's reactions to Cassandra, so much as I remember (and am horribly embarrassed by) my own. I freaking hated Cassandra when I saw that arc. This was probably at least in part because Methos was my favorite character, but, more than that, I remember just hating and being dismissive of everything about her, to the extent that I also recall expecting, a year or maybe two later, to hate her on B5 and then being quite shocked that it turned out I had no trouble with Lochley. She wasn't exactly my favorite character on the series, but I liked her fine, and I certainly didn't have any issues with the actress like I thought I would.

So, really, I almost hope Cassandra's portrayal in Highlander was colored with some classic "blame the woman" nonsense, because early-twenties me certainly seems to have gone in that direction with the whole thing, and I'd like to think that I was getting it from somewhere external. I'd like to think that if someone had compared it to a real-life me-too situation I could have seen that I was being seriously stupid about my reaction, too, but it's hard to say for sure.

As far as Joe goes, my gut says that he was embodying the even-now-still-common trope of a guy who refuses to admit that his buddy could That Kind of Guy. Not necessarily even a military-based thing, but there is a tendency for that kind of us-vs.-them culture to lead people to refuse to listen to anyone who makes accusations against the in-group -- I think of this most in terms of how police brutality charges always lead to a lot of police and even people who either associate themselves with the police directly or indirectly to close ranks against the attack and try to claim that pointing out bad behavior in specific cops or specific situations is an unjustified attack on police everywhere. I could easily see Joe falling for that kind of logic, particularly since I vaguely recall something similar happening with Watchers at another point in the series (I might be wrong about that).

So my bet would be not exactly a gendered situation, but more of a situation of in- vs. out-group bias and "protect the squad" feelings. But I'm mostly talking out of my ass, here, since I don't remember the actual arc all that well.

Comments

[muccamukk]

That rings pretty well with what happened (good vague memory!). Joe's immediate reaction was to say that Cassandra was lying, and that Methos couldn't have been one of the horsemen (and therefore couldn't have raped her). Which you can fan argue a number of ways but was my least favourite Joe moment, that's for sure. It wasn't the first or last time he assumed that his buddies were good and people who had beef with his buddies were bad.

I wonder how much crossover there was between Highlander and B5 fandom, because people sure hated Lochley. I think first time through I disliked her, probably for not being Susan, but I really like her now.

[selenak]

re: Cassandra's portrayal in the show as such - she doesn't win a single one of her sword fights, which is a fate she shares, of course, with a great many immortal guest stars so that Duncan can come to the rescue. But that's easy to fanwank since on this occasion she's facing her ur-Trauma. Other than that, though, I thought HL did a good job because the two Horseman episodes make it clear that she's telling the truth, she's not lying, she's not crazy, and she's not conveniently killed off at the end; her leaving Methos alive as Duncan asks doesn't come with forgiveness for Methos, either. I found all of this fascinating, which is why I wrote a lot of Cassandra and Cassandra and Methos centric fanfic, but some of it was also triggered by the frustration because Cassandra was so thoroughly hated and demonized by a lot of fandom at the time.

I could easily see Joe falling for that kind of logic, particularly since I vaguely recall something similar happening with Watchers at another point in the series (I might be wrong about that).


Well, Joe's introduction story to the show starts with his brother-in-law (a Watcher named Horton) secretly headhunting Immortals, but interestingly, Duncan convincing Joe of his happens relatively quickly; all of Joe's Horton related angst came in subsequent episodes once the writers a) knew the character better and b) didn't have to get the audience to trust this new character anymore.


re: Tracy Scoggings in B5, I liked Lochley, too, and was glad she got to be in Crusade, short as it was.

[nenya_kanadka]

Lochley and Captain whtissname on Crusade was *gold*.

[selenak]

Gideon, Matthew Gideon, and yes, they are. I usually don't ship anyone on this show who isn't either a Centauri or a Narn, but Lochley/Gideon is my exception. :)


re: Crusade in general, are you familiar with andraste's vid "Holy Grail"? It captures the best of this show beautifully.